Summary

• The rise of the Football CTO: Why are Premier League clubs finally hiring tech leaders to fix their “Frankenstein” infrastructure?
• The “Local vs. Global” paradox: Can a historic, town-centric club like Burnley scale for an international audience without alienating the die-hard local fans who say, “It’s not for us”?
• Venture Capital in the locker room: Why do so many club innovation hubs fail by simply chasing equity, and how is Burnley rewriting the playbook to create genuine “win-win” partnerships with tech startups?
• The Single View of the Fan: Moving beyond the buzzword. How do you identify fragmented fan data silos to kill ticket touting, deliver true personalisation and truly understand your fans?
• Invisible innovation: Why the best stadium technology should act like a referee (should) —completely unnoticeable until it’s needed—and why “flashy” tech often loses out to the bread-and-butter of robust cybersecurity.
• The metrics that matter: Are 100,000 owned app users worth more than 1,000,000 social followers?

Transcription

1
00:00:00.000 –> 00:00:03.420
Hello and welcome to this week’s edition of the Attention Shift podcast.

2
00:00:04.040 –> 00:00:08.039
Before we get into the pod, we need to talk about how the fan landscape is changing.

3
00:00:08.640 –> 00:00:13.120
According to the Financial Times, time spent on social media peaked back in 2022

4
00:00:13.120 –> 00:00:15.000
and has been falling ever since.

5
00:00:15.780 –> 00:00:19.560
But if social is in decline, how are you going to stay connected with your fans?

6
00:00:20.160 –> 00:00:23.320
That’s exactly why at Display, we launched the Anonymous Fan Index.

7
00:00:23.600 –> 00:00:25.380
We brought together the leaders of sports business

8
00:00:25.380 –> 00:00:27.780
to identify the biggest gaps in fan understanding

9
00:00:27.780 –> 00:00:31.100
and a clear path for ensuring you stay connected to your audience.

10
00:00:33.710 –> 00:00:36.550
Welcome to the Attention Shift, a podcast where sports media

11
00:00:36.550 –> 00:00:41.630
gets debated, memed, duetted, stitched and reposted faster than I can say,

12
00:00:41.950 –> 00:00:42.770
multi-platform media.

13
00:00:45.680 –> 00:00:49.280
Welcome to a special episode of the Attention Shift podcast.

14
00:00:49.500 –> 00:00:51.940
I’m Jo Redfern. I’m Lee Radbourne. And I’m Ed Abis.

15
00:00:52.640 –> 00:00:54.040
Who have we got with us today, Ed?

16
00:00:54.820 –> 00:00:56.980
We’ve got Joe Darkins from Burnley Football Club.

17
00:00:57.500 –> 00:00:59.780
We’ve talked about Burnley quite a bit. You have?

18
00:00:59.780 –> 00:01:02.360
Well, I talk about Burnley in every episode that we do.

19
00:01:02.860 –> 00:01:04.800
So we thought it’d be great to get someone off of the club

20
00:01:04.800 –> 00:01:05.820
to come and have a chat to us.

21
00:01:06.660 –> 00:01:08.800
Joe is Burnley’s very first CTO.

22
00:01:09.300 –> 00:01:10.940
I am, yeah. Got the title right. That’s a good start.

23
00:01:11.840 –> 00:01:13.940
So we thought it’d be interesting to understand, obviously,

24
00:01:13.960 –> 00:01:16.320
what a CTO does in a football club, because it’s not necessarily

25
00:01:16.320 –> 00:01:19.200
always been a role that’s been prevalent in football clubs,

26
00:01:19.200 –> 00:01:22.340
but also, like I said, we do talk a lot on the podcast about Burnley

27
00:01:22.340 –> 00:01:24.720
or I do about Burnley and a lot of the things that the club’s doing

28
00:01:25.160 –> 00:01:26.520
and in terms of innovation.

29
00:01:26.900 –> 00:01:29.760
So we thought, yeah, it’s great to be here.

30
00:01:30.320 –> 00:01:30.960
Thanks, Colin.

31
00:01:31.380 –> 00:01:35.320
So to start off, then, when did Burnley identify

32
00:01:35.320 –> 00:01:38.200
that they needed someone with your skill set in that kind of role

33
00:01:38.200 –> 00:01:41.380
at the club in terms of why did they feel like they needed a CTO?

34
00:01:41.600 –> 00:01:44.820
Because look, Burnley’s a, you know, I’d love us to be

35
00:01:44.820 –> 00:01:46.740
like top six Premier League team, but sort of like,

36
00:01:46.900 –> 00:01:49.420
we’re sort of mid-level, we’re in for mid-level at the moment.

37
00:01:50.560 –> 00:01:52.420
So, yeah, we’re going in the right direction.

38
00:01:52.640 –> 00:01:55.300
But why did they feel like now was the time to make that jump?

39
00:01:56.220 –> 00:01:59.000
Look, I think the

40
00:01:59.000 –> 00:02:02.080
moment you can trace back to the ownership change, right?

41
00:02:02.340 –> 00:02:03.680
And the current ownership,

42
00:02:04.140 –> 00:02:05.580
ALK Capital, when they took over the club,

43
00:02:06.040 –> 00:02:09.840
there’s definitely a shift and they see technology as like a key pillar

44
00:02:10.360 –> 00:02:14.580
in terms of finding engagement, in terms of, you know, just data

45
00:02:14.580 –> 00:02:17.660
and really just trying to drive the club forward more than anything else.

46
00:02:18.220 –> 00:02:19.660
You know, Burnley, as you said, has been

47
00:02:20.560 –> 00:02:24.520
I think you kind of see it across the entire organization, right?

48
00:02:24.820 –> 00:02:27.840
I think you’re seeing you’re seeing all the boundaries being pushed

49
00:02:28.620 –> 00:02:31.760
across marketing, across, you know, the fun experience,

50
00:02:31.900 –> 00:02:33.100
et cetera, across everywhere.

51
00:02:33.600 –> 00:02:36.840
Technology is just one of those that the ownership are trying to

52
00:02:36.840 –> 00:02:38.020
like really drive forward.

53
00:02:38.520 –> 00:02:40.220
And how long have you been in post now?

54
00:02:41.720 –> 00:02:42.740
Coming up to two years.

55
00:02:43.080 –> 00:02:48.600
OK. And so what surprised you most about the tech infrastructure so far?

56
00:02:50.500 –> 00:02:53.340
There was some stuff to fix on day one.

57
00:02:53.340 –> 00:02:58.180
So there was there was a few things that needed

58
00:02:58.180 –> 00:02:59.920
that needed picking up immediately.

59
00:03:00.520 –> 00:03:03.520
And thankfully, we we sorted that out pretty quickly.

60
00:03:03.920 –> 00:03:06.480
I think I think there was still some things in place when I worked there.

61
00:03:06.500 –> 00:03:07.700
Yeah. Nineteen years ago.

62
00:03:07.700 –> 00:03:10.420
Yeah. I mean, and that’s not being derogatory in any way,

63
00:03:10.440 –> 00:03:13.160
which I think just the club was where the club was.

64
00:03:13.520 –> 00:03:16.160
It was being it was being invested in certain areas, but not in others.

65
00:03:16.220 –> 00:03:18.840
Yeah. From as a fan and knowing, obviously having worked there

66
00:03:18.840 –> 00:03:21.020
and known that knew that some things still were still there.

67
00:03:21.240 –> 00:03:22.680
Yeah, 100 percent. Look, I mean,

68
00:03:22.680 –> 00:03:25.960
you know, there wasn’t anyone really like taking ownership of that tech budget.

69
00:03:26.860 –> 00:03:29.620
And, you know, naturally, you’re going to have some some challenges with that.

70
00:03:29.680 –> 00:03:32.120
The guys there are fantastic, you know, and they’re doing what they could.

71
00:03:32.840 –> 00:03:35.840
But I think it’s helped just having somebody come in and really kind of

72
00:03:35.840 –> 00:03:38.260
grab it and just say, look, we need to invest here, here and here.

73
00:03:38.500 –> 00:03:40.980
And hopefully that that’s really helped kind of moving things forward

74
00:03:40.980 –> 00:03:43.400
from that kind of, I say, the older infrastructure

75
00:03:43.400 –> 00:03:44.760
that we use now just to start with.

76
00:03:44.920 –> 00:03:47.580
We talk about we’ve talked about that a lot before about silos

77
00:03:47.580 –> 00:03:49.460
of technology or silos of data.

78
00:03:49.460 –> 00:03:52.820
And is that was is that part of the problem that you faced in this?

79
00:03:52.840 –> 00:03:53.980
And how do you approach that?

80
00:03:54.100 –> 00:03:58.480
How do you when we talk about like unifying your databases

81
00:03:58.480 –> 00:04:01.880
because you get this sort of 360 degree view of a fan?

82
00:04:01.920 –> 00:04:04.760
I guess that’s one element of your job. Yeah.

83
00:04:05.740 –> 00:04:07.200
How do you how do you approach that?

84
00:04:07.320 –> 00:04:09.960
How do you know, was it was it like a bit all over the place,

85
00:04:10.020 –> 00:04:11.240
a bit of a Frankenstein’s monster?

86
00:04:11.640 –> 00:04:14.020
And then did you have to have you got a strategy in place

87
00:04:14.020 –> 00:04:15.740
that’s kind of unifying that at the moment?

88
00:04:15.900 –> 00:04:17.920
Yeah. You know, the data was joined.

89
00:04:17.920 –> 00:04:23.340
I mean, you when I joined, they’ve just done a deal with a firm

90
00:04:23.340 –> 00:04:26.040
and you’ll see that they’re SSO like the sign on.

91
00:04:26.180 –> 00:04:27.260
You can sign into ticketing.

92
00:04:27.380 –> 00:04:29.180
You can sign into the e-commerce.

93
00:04:29.260 –> 00:04:31.160
You can sign into the website with single credentials.

94
00:04:31.360 –> 00:04:34.160
So it’s kind of building that kind of centralization of that data.

95
00:04:34.700 –> 00:04:37.640
I think, you know, I’ve met with them recently to like talk about

96
00:04:37.640 –> 00:04:39.300
what what what the future looks like.

97
00:04:39.700 –> 00:04:43.040
And, you know, it’s very much how then do you take that to the next step

98
00:04:43.040 –> 00:04:46.340
of trying to unify that fan kind of that one view of a fan?

99
00:04:46.780 –> 00:04:49.060
Everyone’s like trying to drive to that one view of a fan, right?

100
00:04:49.200 –> 00:04:53.220
You know, I’d be there’s nothing kind of revolutionary in explaining it

101
00:04:53.220 –> 00:04:56.020
in terms of technical, like complexities of trying to do it.

102
00:04:56.020 –> 00:04:59.260
It’s actually quite complex because, you know, fundamentally,

103
00:04:59.260 –> 00:05:01.660
if you’ve got somebody, it’s easy.

104
00:05:02.120 –> 00:05:04.640
It’s easy. Somebody signs on a website, right?

105
00:05:04.900 –> 00:05:06.040
But it’s completely separate.

106
00:05:06.220 –> 00:05:08.120
If somebody is trying to get a pint at halftime,

107
00:05:08.260 –> 00:05:09.980
then you want to be able to like understand, you know,

108
00:05:10.060 –> 00:05:12.560
what people are spending their money on during during a game,

109
00:05:12.560 –> 00:05:15.040
because who’s going to sit there when you want a pint

110
00:05:15.040 –> 00:05:17.400
and then pull out the phone, try and pull out the right QR code,

111
00:05:17.660 –> 00:05:19.520
like scanning against the scanner in order to be able to.

112
00:05:19.900 –> 00:05:21.440
And what’s that loyalty and value exchange?

113
00:05:21.620 –> 00:05:22.580
So, yeah, that’s what’s going on.

114
00:05:24.020 –> 00:05:28.140
And what constituent parts for the uninitiated, I mean,

115
00:05:28.340 –> 00:05:32.300
what constituent parts of technology do you look after?

116
00:05:32.420 –> 00:05:33.800
I mean, we’re talking about fan data there,

117
00:05:33.800 –> 00:05:36.820
but we mentioned before we started recording cyber security.

118
00:05:37.200 –> 00:05:39.720
What are those what are those buckets that you’ve got to

119
00:05:39.720 –> 00:05:41.900
have a holistic view over in your role?

120
00:05:42.760 –> 00:05:44.880
So kind of digital platforms.

121
00:05:46.480 –> 00:05:48.560
I help with, you know, some of the football

122
00:05:48.560 –> 00:05:50.220
data contract side of things as well.

123
00:05:50.840 –> 00:05:52.480
I look after the networking.

124
00:05:52.800 –> 00:05:54.920
That’s everything from, you know, the backbone network,

125
00:05:54.940 –> 00:05:57.560
the connectivity and the Wi-Fi, all the usual stuff.

126
00:05:58.120 –> 00:06:02.440
I look after cyber security, you know, everything down to kind of like,

127
00:06:02.440 –> 00:06:06.560
you know, there’s the AI strategy, like everything across the club

128
00:06:06.560 –> 00:06:08.280
around technology, really.

129
00:06:08.500 –> 00:06:09.740
I mean, and it’s been interesting

130
00:06:09.740 –> 00:06:12.860
coming in and understanding where those kind of where those barriers lie.

131
00:06:12.900 –> 00:06:17.420
Yeah, you know, because naturally, especially with SaaS platforms now,

132
00:06:17.580 –> 00:06:19.720
like different departments can kind of go like, well,

133
00:06:19.720 –> 00:06:22.040
I know what I want anyway, and I’m just signing a check

134
00:06:22.040 –> 00:06:22.800
and we’re getting it done.

135
00:06:23.060 –> 00:06:24.780
But you still need some oversight and governance

136
00:06:24.780 –> 00:06:27.400
over what those platforms look like so that they feed in

137
00:06:27.400 –> 00:06:30.260
so that we are creating not just a single view of a fan,

138
00:06:30.300 –> 00:06:32.980
but we’re also kind of like making sure that the data of the club

139
00:06:32.980 –> 00:06:35.860
is all centralised as well so we can make better education decisions.

140
00:06:36.820 –> 00:06:40.720
Shadow IT that you get where marketing, you know, decide to go

141
00:06:40.720 –> 00:06:43.680
with one type of thing and somewhere else goes with something else.

142
00:06:44.040 –> 00:06:47.440
And yeah, classic IT manager, you know, I guess it’s before you

143
00:06:47.440 –> 00:06:49.840
would have been like, OK, well, they may not have even seen it.

144
00:06:49.880 –> 00:06:50.640
Yeah, 100 percent.

145
00:06:50.820 –> 00:06:52.760
I mean, like, look, I mean, it’s a delicate balance

146
00:06:52.760 –> 00:06:53.980
to kind of like work with.

147
00:06:53.980 –> 00:06:55.440
You don’t want to slow departments down.

148
00:06:55.840 –> 00:06:58.980
So, you know, some things you’re just like, OK, you know, crack on.

149
00:06:59.260 –> 00:07:02.840
So, you know, if if the commercial team want to use LinkedIn, for example,

150
00:07:02.840 –> 00:07:05.360
sales navigator, I’m like, that’s not my back.

151
00:07:05.520 –> 00:07:08.120
You know, there’s not much value I can add on the other side.

152
00:07:08.200 –> 00:07:10.460
If, you know, if somebody is doing something that’s got PII data

153
00:07:10.460 –> 00:07:13.000
from my fans, for example, I’m like, hold on a second.

154
00:07:13.160 –> 00:07:15.720
Yeah, let’s put some structure on this to make sure hopefully

155
00:07:15.720 –> 00:07:17.100
we should be all right going forward.

156
00:07:17.800 –> 00:07:21.280
So interesting that with tech and look, AI is now becoming

157
00:07:21.280 –> 00:07:24.040
the catalyst for for for technology and choices

158
00:07:24.040 –> 00:07:25.780
and how you connect things together.

159
00:07:26.360 –> 00:07:30.680
So how are you seeing that Burnley, you know, capitalising on that?

160
00:07:30.700 –> 00:07:31.980
And we’ve had a few chats about it.

161
00:07:31.980 –> 00:07:33.780
Obviously, you know a lot more about it than I do.

162
00:07:34.720 –> 00:07:36.340
And obviously, there’s a lot of developing at a rapid rate.

163
00:07:36.340 –> 00:07:38.400
How is that leaning into what’s going on in the innovation hub?

164
00:07:38.500 –> 00:07:41.360
Is that partly connected to that or is actually is that?

165
00:07:42.660 –> 00:07:45.760
Yeah, so I wouldn’t say the innovation hubs like the innovation hub

166
00:07:45.760 –> 00:07:48.660
that we’ve got at Burnley is focused more just on,

167
00:07:49.780 –> 00:07:52.840
you know, partnering with those startups that can really impact the club.

168
00:07:53.320 –> 00:07:55.040
If they happen to have AI. Yeah, OK.

169
00:07:55.380 –> 00:07:56.520
That’s definitely part of it.

170
00:07:56.880 –> 00:08:00.720
But I’d say the AI side is separate to that, if that makes sense.

171
00:08:00.720 –> 00:08:02.320
Can you tell us a bit more about the innovation hub?

172
00:08:02.500 –> 00:08:05.980
So you see a lot more now where clubs are seen to be investing

173
00:08:05.980 –> 00:08:09.700
in their sort of innovators programs, you know, different fundings.

174
00:08:09.780 –> 00:08:13.420
How does it work for Burnley and what’s your involvement?

175
00:08:13.820 –> 00:08:14.260
Yeah, sure.

176
00:08:14.600 –> 00:08:16.380
I mean, I don’t run the innovation hub.

177
00:08:16.440 –> 00:08:19.180
That’s run by Penelope Edmonds, and she’s fantastic.

178
00:08:19.360 –> 00:08:21.200
So she’s working on the ARK level.

179
00:08:22.140 –> 00:08:23.100
And really, I think.

180
00:08:24.040 –> 00:08:26.680
So I’ve been part of this in my previous role.

181
00:08:26.740 –> 00:08:29.100
So before here, I worked and there’s a venture capital

182
00:08:29.100 –> 00:08:30.680
business that we that we had.

183
00:08:31.680 –> 00:08:33.940
And that venture capital arm made some really good

184
00:08:34.799 –> 00:08:35.900
investments going forward.

185
00:08:35.919 –> 00:08:38.640
And I was helping them vet the companies that they were bringing

186
00:08:38.640 –> 00:08:41.580
into that venture capital organization.

187
00:08:41.940 –> 00:08:46.260
So I’ve seen firsthand where, you know, startups can come in

188
00:08:46.260 –> 00:08:50.640
within a company and really kind of motor it and, you know, really

189
00:08:50.640 –> 00:08:52.480
add value to both sides. Right.

190
00:08:53.220 –> 00:08:55.900
And the venture capital arm that I used to work with,

191
00:08:56.160 –> 00:08:59.080
it was unbelievable seeing these small companies coming in

192
00:08:59.100 –> 00:09:03.680
and they would then effectively partner across the organization

193
00:09:03.680 –> 00:09:06.700
and really kind of drive hyper growth of that startup going forward.

194
00:09:07.040 –> 00:09:08.060
The cross whole organization.

195
00:09:08.320 –> 00:09:09.280
That was awesome.

196
00:09:09.660 –> 00:09:12.320
And, you know, you can hope that something similar is going to happen

197
00:09:12.320 –> 00:09:13.480
at Burnley, right? Yeah.

198
00:09:13.640 –> 00:09:16.580
You know, companies that are that are chomping at the bit to get

199
00:09:17.180 –> 00:09:20.700
into Premier League clubs and get that exposure and get that buy in.

200
00:09:20.880 –> 00:09:24.120
You know, I’m here to help facilitate, you know, with Penelope,

201
00:09:24.340 –> 00:09:26.440
that, you know, they find the right investments and I’m there

202
00:09:26.440 –> 00:09:29.720
to help make sure that, you know, I’ll have a look at them early on

203
00:09:29.720 –> 00:09:32.660
and just talk with Penelope and work in partnership and just say, look,

204
00:09:32.660 –> 00:09:35.160
you know, that’s something that, you know, I think we could really work with

205
00:09:35.160 –> 00:09:37.760
and that we could accelerate through the organization as well.

206
00:09:38.180 –> 00:09:39.340
So super interesting time.

207
00:09:39.440 –> 00:09:40.400
Really, really fascinating.

208
00:09:40.740 –> 00:09:41.820
And she’s fantastic.

209
00:09:42.120 –> 00:09:45.460
And, you know, I absolutely welcome anyone to reach out to her.

210
00:09:45.560 –> 00:09:48.040
What would what would success look like when you’re assessing?

211
00:09:48.140 –> 00:09:50.040
I think it’s really interesting because I know there’s different people

212
00:09:50.040 –> 00:09:51.320
who’s always trying to get into tech clubs.

213
00:09:51.500 –> 00:09:54.240
And I think that tech tech companies trying to get into clubs and stuff.

214
00:09:54.460 –> 00:09:55.140
That’s obviously happened.

215
00:09:55.140 –> 00:09:55.820
You see that a lot.

216
00:09:56.300 –> 00:09:58.060
We spoke to a few

217
00:09:58.500 –> 00:10:00.060
because of the nature of the kind of things we do as well.

218
00:10:00.060 –> 00:10:01.560
We spoke to a few franchises in the U.S.

219
00:10:01.660 –> 00:10:02.640
right. I said, do you want to come and join this?

220
00:10:02.700 –> 00:10:05.420
I’m like, well, that’s not necessarily where we are as a business right now.

221
00:10:05.720 –> 00:10:07.540
You know, there are other businesses that are all starting out

222
00:10:07.540 –> 00:10:10.740
that it would seem better than us because we’ve got certain structures in place.

223
00:10:11.300 –> 00:10:12.540
But they see you doing cool stuff.

224
00:10:12.540 –> 00:10:13.820
They go, do you want to come and be part of this?

225
00:10:13.960 –> 00:10:17.580
And then what the experience we’ve had is sometimes they said to us, OK,

226
00:10:17.680 –> 00:10:19.940
then so you do this project for us.

227
00:10:19.960 –> 00:10:21.260
We get some equity in your business.

228
00:10:21.340 –> 00:10:22.880
But then there’s no real outcome from it.

229
00:10:22.960 –> 00:10:23.640
Like, well, wait a minute.

230
00:10:23.640 –> 00:10:26.800
Just doing a project to give me some equity is not necessarily helping us to scale.

231
00:10:27.080 –> 00:10:28.400
Like we only know we can do this.

232
00:10:28.400 –> 00:10:30.100
We’ve done this time and time again elsewhere.

233
00:10:30.540 –> 00:10:32.260
And I know you don’t want to be like that, right?

234
00:10:32.260 –> 00:10:34.720
You want to get some real tangible for both sides.

235
00:10:35.100 –> 00:10:36.520
100 percent. It’s got 100 percent.

236
00:10:36.540 –> 00:10:37.280
It’s got to be a win win.

237
00:10:37.440 –> 00:10:40.280
So how would you how would you do that differently then

238
00:10:40.280 –> 00:10:42.920
to make sure it is win win for both parties?

239
00:10:43.440 –> 00:10:47.520
Well, you know, and arguably, you know, my day jobs running the clock.

240
00:10:47.520 –> 00:10:50.020
I think that’s why they brought in Penelope, you know,

241
00:10:50.240 –> 00:10:52.760
because she’s the one that can work with the different departments

242
00:10:52.760 –> 00:10:55.880
on the different opportunities and say, you know,

243
00:10:55.940 –> 00:10:58.840
how is this going to benefit you and how is this going to benefit the club

244
00:10:59.360 –> 00:11:01.640
and create that kind of win win situation?

245
00:11:02.340 –> 00:11:05.160
But also understanding, can we actually implement this tech

246
00:11:05.160 –> 00:11:08.380
within the organization as well should hopefully give us the right foundation

247
00:11:08.380 –> 00:11:12.140
to to to effectively set us up for the win.

248
00:11:12.260 –> 00:11:14.680
Right. You know, for both of us. Right.

249
00:11:14.940 –> 00:11:17.440
And those decisions to it to invest into those

250
00:11:18.280 –> 00:11:22.440
those tech companies, are they the nuts and bolts of technology

251
00:11:22.440 –> 00:11:25.300
and management or are there some fan experiences

252
00:11:25.300 –> 00:11:27.820
that you interesting fan experiences that you see going through?

253
00:11:28.460 –> 00:11:30.820
I don’t know what the final list is of, you know,

254
00:11:30.900 –> 00:11:34.520
but, you know, of what I’ve seen at the moment, there’s everything from,

255
00:11:34.520 –> 00:11:37.160
you know, there’s you’re obviously the day to plays.

256
00:11:37.760 –> 00:11:40.440
There’s, you know, some really cool fan experience as well.

257
00:11:40.840 –> 00:11:44.340
Gamification. There’s, you know, some kind of

258
00:11:45.080 –> 00:11:46.060
I’m one of these.

259
00:11:46.540 –> 00:11:49.540
I really like some of the flashy stuff, but I’m also just like

260
00:11:49.540 –> 00:11:51.180
I’m a bread and buttery infrastructure guy.

261
00:11:51.180 –> 00:11:52.720
I actually quite like some of that.

262
00:11:52.760 –> 00:11:53.560
I thought we’d check it out.

263
00:11:54.260 –> 00:11:56.180
Is there any actual point in that?

264
00:11:56.420 –> 00:11:58.580
Looks nice, but you know, some of you should come along

265
00:11:58.580 –> 00:12:01.340
and people are like, oh, well, it’s not, you know, it’s not flashy and shiny.

266
00:12:01.420 –> 00:12:03.480
But I’m like, you know what, that’s been really good tech.

267
00:12:03.560 –> 00:12:05.600
Yeah, it’s going to really smash out of the park.

268
00:12:05.900 –> 00:12:07.460
Like there’s a few of those as well.

269
00:12:08.100 –> 00:12:11.600
I’ll I’ll hold and let let Penelope kind of, you know,

270
00:12:11.600 –> 00:12:13.660
provide the big reveal.

271
00:12:13.900 –> 00:12:16.860
But there’s definitely some interesting companies that have come across as well.

272
00:12:16.900 –> 00:12:18.660
And, you know, some exciting opportunities.

273
00:12:19.160 –> 00:12:20.460
What made you join Burnley?

274
00:12:20.460 –> 00:12:21.620
What was the driver?

275
00:12:22.800 –> 00:12:24.380
I really like complexity.

276
00:12:25.060 –> 00:12:25.660
Yeah, always have.

277
00:12:25.920 –> 00:12:28.240
Like I’ve always kind of I started my

278
00:12:28.240 –> 00:12:32.400
I started working in the city in London when I when I graduated

279
00:12:33.020 –> 00:12:35.920
because I really liked kind of like the complexity there.

280
00:12:36.520 –> 00:12:38.600
I go into technology because I like complex things.

281
00:12:39.320 –> 00:12:42.340
For me, football club was like I was always kind of like

282
00:12:42.340 –> 00:12:44.660
looking from the outside as a football fan going like,

283
00:12:45.120 –> 00:12:47.140
oh, my God, like, that’s just fascinating.

284
00:12:47.400 –> 00:12:49.800
You know, like how on earth does that operate?

285
00:12:49.800 –> 00:12:54.560
You know, it’s like and it is and it’s unlike it’s unlike any other business.

286
00:12:54.820 –> 00:12:56.540
I’ve worked, you know, it’s very different.

287
00:12:56.540 –> 00:12:58.760
I’ve worked in some of the fastest growing startups in Europe.

288
00:12:59.020 –> 00:13:02.000
I’ve worked for 40, 500 companies, you know, like

289
00:13:03.060 –> 00:13:05.660
and, you know, but I’ve also played, you know,

290
00:13:05.720 –> 00:13:07.680
lacrosse for England for, you know, eight years.

291
00:13:07.740 –> 00:13:10.460
And, you know, a big sports background, huge football fan.

292
00:13:10.740 –> 00:13:13.880
So it’s just amazing to be able to bring it together.

293
00:13:14.120 –> 00:13:17.140
And I actually think an external view of technology

294
00:13:17.140 –> 00:13:18.920
coming into football is actually quite healthy.

295
00:13:18.920 –> 00:13:23.280
Because I’ve seen, you know, I’ve, you know, I’ve seen

296
00:13:23.280 –> 00:13:24.920
not necessarily that it’s done well.

297
00:13:24.940 –> 00:13:27.420
I’ve seen it done, you know, poorly as well.

298
00:13:27.420 –> 00:13:30.640
But I think that external experience helps kind of coming into a football club

299
00:13:30.640 –> 00:13:33.000
of trying to change how it’s how it’s seen.

300
00:13:33.180 –> 00:13:35.780
So you think there’s like obviously, you said it’s obviously

301
00:13:36.440 –> 00:13:39.980
sports professional yourself and then also working like like startups in city.

302
00:13:40.180 –> 00:13:41.680
Like, what is it the things that you think?

303
00:13:41.840 –> 00:13:45.180
Well, actually, there’s a that thing that’s really done really well over here

304
00:13:45.180 –> 00:13:48.380
that you wanted to bring to value or think that, you know,

305
00:13:48.380 –> 00:13:49.540
clubs could take forward.

306
00:13:49.960 –> 00:13:53.620
Is there what like not just one thing, but like you kind of said there,

307
00:13:53.780 –> 00:13:56.120
like that external point of view gives you a real objective

308
00:13:56.120 –> 00:13:57.560
and probably gives you a real advantage.

309
00:13:57.640 –> 00:14:00.160
Is there something that you think actually it’s that bit of experience

310
00:14:00.160 –> 00:14:03.860
that kind of really has given me a bit game changing?

311
00:14:04.540 –> 00:14:05.820
Interesting. Interesting to say that.

312
00:14:06.000 –> 00:14:10.480
I think for me, it’s the expectation of the partners that we work with.

313
00:14:10.480 –> 00:14:12.600
Yeah, I think some of the partners in football

314
00:14:13.800 –> 00:14:15.760
and, you know, the fantastic businesses.

315
00:14:16.440 –> 00:14:20.100
But I think they’re used to kind of working within the sports environment

316
00:14:20.100 –> 00:14:22.240
and coming in and saying, hold on a second.

317
00:14:22.600 –> 00:14:26.040
Like, that’s not how I’m used to firms operating

318
00:14:26.040 –> 00:14:30.540
in terms of just like in terms of the openness of their platforms

319
00:14:30.540 –> 00:14:33.600
and how they’re trying to tie you in certain things for certain clubs.

320
00:14:33.660 –> 00:14:34.900
That works really, really well.

321
00:14:35.580 –> 00:14:38.940
But that’s the nature of football that makes it so interesting

322
00:14:38.940 –> 00:14:43.220
is because, you know, you’ve got smaller, you know, like, you know,

323
00:14:43.620 –> 00:14:46.340
division two clubs, and then you’ve got these Premier League.

324
00:14:46.460 –> 00:14:49.120
And like, there’s only a finite number of them, right?

325
00:14:49.280 –> 00:14:51.080
You know, if you look at the number of like, I know,

326
00:14:52.500 –> 00:14:54.060
recruitment firms in the country, right?

327
00:14:54.080 –> 00:14:55.600
You know, there’s thousands of them everywhere.

328
00:14:55.620 –> 00:15:00.320
But you’ve got this kind of artificially constrained number of clubs

329
00:15:00.320 –> 00:15:03.640
and you’ve got these limited suppliers and they’ve got to try and cater for both.

330
00:15:03.980 –> 00:15:06.700
So it’s just I’m trying to work with them to go like, look,

331
00:15:06.800 –> 00:15:09.540
there’s new ways of working here, how you can do X, Y and Z.

332
00:15:09.640 –> 00:15:10.940
And hopefully it’s going to work.

333
00:15:11.040 –> 00:15:13.040
But that to me is really useful.

334
00:15:13.040 –> 00:15:15.580
I think we’d like with Burnley, I mean, obviously, look, I’m

335
00:15:15.580 –> 00:15:18.040
I’m at sort of the older end of the spectrum now.

336
00:15:18.260 –> 00:15:19.660
And also, I’ve got a lot of, you know,

337
00:15:20.960 –> 00:15:23.180
a lot of my friends are similar kind of age, right?

338
00:15:24.320 –> 00:15:24.960
And we’re snappers.

339
00:15:26.380 –> 00:15:28.500
But there’s a lot of talk about a lot of things that are happening

340
00:15:28.500 –> 00:15:30.960
at the club now is I’ve heard this phrase all the time.

341
00:15:30.960 –> 00:15:32.280
It’s not for us, though. It’s not for us.

342
00:15:33.140 –> 00:15:36.100
Because Burnley was I think is unique in a lot of ways.

343
00:15:36.220 –> 00:15:38.200
It’s the most important thing in the place it’s from.

344
00:15:38.500 –> 00:15:41.260
It has always very much been about the local fan

345
00:15:41.260 –> 00:15:43.160
and there’s a real intensity with that local fan.

346
00:15:43.620 –> 00:15:46.980
But ultimately, it can’t scale if you don’t start to embrace

347
00:15:46.980 –> 00:15:49.680
the international fan, but you still want to maintain.

348
00:15:50.040 –> 00:15:53.180
And I see it myself, that local edge to it.

349
00:15:53.280 –> 00:15:55.160
And I think like, you know, ALK coming in

350
00:15:55.160 –> 00:15:58.200
probably took him a few years to sort of work out what that looked like.

351
00:15:58.620 –> 00:16:00.400
And I’ve also heard the chairman talk about

352
00:16:00.400 –> 00:16:01.940
now he’s going off to Espanol, some of the experiences

353
00:16:01.940 –> 00:16:04.420
that at Burnley will do things slightly differently.

354
00:16:04.420 –> 00:16:05.900
And that’s not in a derogatory sense.

355
00:16:05.900 –> 00:16:06.680
You just learn, right?

356
00:16:06.760 –> 00:16:08.760
If you don’t learn, then then you never move forward.

357
00:16:09.160 –> 00:16:10.580
But how are you finding that balance now?

358
00:16:10.580 –> 00:16:13.140
Because I think it feels like the ownership

359
00:16:13.140 –> 00:16:15.460
started moving to a phase now being a bit more mature

360
00:16:15.460 –> 00:16:19.940
about how he’s doing things to maintain that still that local feel,

361
00:16:20.000 –> 00:16:23.060
but ultimately then reach that wider audience that it’s going to need

362
00:16:23.060 –> 00:16:25.960
to be able to scale and I imagine have the funds

363
00:16:25.960 –> 00:16:28.600
to be able to continue to compete at a Premier League level.

364
00:16:28.740 –> 00:16:31.740
And how is what you’re doing ultimately putting that,

365
00:16:31.740 –> 00:16:34.880
I guess, that infrastructure in place and being able to do it?

366
00:16:35.100 –> 00:16:35.500
Yeah.

367
00:16:36.640 –> 00:16:38.100
Big question. I’ll try and break it down.

368
00:16:38.100 –> 00:16:39.340
Sorry, Mike.

369
00:16:39.600 –> 00:16:40.180
No, no, it’s good.

370
00:16:41.440 –> 00:16:43.600
I think it’s personal preference, right?

371
00:16:43.960 –> 00:16:45.120
You’re a Burnley fan through and through.

372
00:16:45.360 –> 00:16:47.080
So it’s like, you know, I can see it’s…

373
00:16:47.080 –> 00:16:49.740
Yeah, I did love everything I saw early on,

374
00:16:49.740 –> 00:16:54.200
but it feels like it’s settled down now and it’s and it feels

375
00:16:54.200 –> 00:16:56.460
things are more thought through when they happen.

376
00:16:56.860 –> 00:16:58.440
Because I think it’s just it’s just natural.

377
00:16:58.640 –> 00:16:59.760
They wanted to change things.

378
00:16:59.920 –> 00:17:01.340
It needed it needed change, right?

379
00:17:01.520 –> 00:17:02.180
It had not changed.

380
00:17:02.380 –> 00:17:04.160
Like I said, I lived only 20 years ago

381
00:17:04.160 –> 00:17:05.980
and it had not changed that much in that period of time.

382
00:17:06.020 –> 00:17:07.200
Now you start to see it.

383
00:17:07.200 –> 00:17:10.339
It feels more like things are evolving rather than it’s

384
00:17:10.339 –> 00:17:12.040
evolution rather revolution now, I feel.

385
00:17:12.180 –> 00:17:14.880
I mean, how many clubs do you see where the chairman gets up

386
00:17:14.880 –> 00:17:16.400
in front of the fans with a microphone?

387
00:17:16.819 –> 00:17:17.740
Not rarely these days.

388
00:17:18.339 –> 00:17:20.200
They used to happen a lot 20 years ago.

389
00:17:20.359 –> 00:17:21.200
Now it just doesn’t happen.

390
00:17:21.400 –> 00:17:24.220
In Burnley, with a microphone in front of all the fans

391
00:17:24.220 –> 00:17:26.680
answering questions he’s never heard of, right?

392
00:17:27.280 –> 00:17:28.740
And just there’s an open forum.

393
00:17:29.100 –> 00:17:30.540
How long does round on match days, right?

394
00:17:30.820 –> 00:17:31.760
It doesn’t seem to be there.

395
00:17:31.940 –> 00:17:35.440
You know, Russell Ball is doing, you know, you know,

396
00:17:35.680 –> 00:17:37.080
he works tirelessly for the fans.

397
00:17:37.080 –> 00:17:39.740
You know, local and international as well.

398
00:17:39.920 –> 00:17:41.560
But we also have a local fan forum, right?

399
00:17:41.560 –> 00:17:45.060
To make sure that’s completely open and meet regularly.

400
00:17:45.400 –> 00:17:46.740
I think they’re meeting this week, actually.

401
00:17:47.220 –> 00:17:50.500
And, you know, they take it incredibly seriously at a local level.

402
00:17:51.320 –> 00:17:54.040
It would be so I think from from a local perspective,

403
00:17:54.100 –> 00:17:55.840
the club is, you know, incredibly

404
00:17:56.720 –> 00:17:59.240
cognizant of, like, you know, the value of local fans

405
00:17:59.240 –> 00:18:01.720
and what they bring on match day and the passion.

406
00:18:02.220 –> 00:18:05.140
And then you’ve got the international side as well.

407
00:18:05.140 –> 00:18:08.640
You’re looking at Do Perfect, JJ Wa, you know, the partnerships

408
00:18:08.640 –> 00:18:12.960
we’re trying to make across across international borders.

409
00:18:14.080 –> 00:18:15.680
You know, every club’s trying that, right?

410
00:18:15.880 –> 00:18:18.460
I don’t think anyone would turn around and be like,

411
00:18:18.600 –> 00:18:21.300
if Burnley weren’t doing it, you’d be like, why aren’t you?

412
00:18:21.300 –> 00:18:22.980
Your question would be like, why aren’t you?

413
00:18:23.460 –> 00:18:23.960
100 percent.

414
00:18:24.280 –> 00:18:26.880
So I think so you’ve got to create that balance.

415
00:18:27.200 –> 00:18:29.520
But, you know, it feels to me, as you said,

416
00:18:30.600 –> 00:18:33.140
that there does feel like there’s that right balance at the moment.

417
00:18:33.180 –> 00:18:34.320
And in terms of people saying,

418
00:18:34.320 –> 00:18:35.760
you know, it’s not for me.

419
00:18:36.140 –> 00:18:39.540
It’s, you know, on the same way, you know, I think,

420
00:18:39.540 –> 00:18:42.300
you know, part of my job is trying to look at new trends and innovation.

421
00:18:42.420 –> 00:18:45.860
Yeah. And, you know, there’s there’s there’s actually quite a

422
00:18:46.400 –> 00:18:49.320
a demographic that wants the change in innovation.

423
00:18:49.620 –> 00:18:51.440
So, again, like, you know, when I come back to that

424
00:18:51.440 –> 00:18:54.360
complexity point before of, like, why is complex an organisation?

425
00:18:54.520 –> 00:18:56.160
I mean, again, you just look at the customer

426
00:18:56.160 –> 00:18:57.680
demographic that you’re working with, right?

427
00:18:57.780 –> 00:19:00.680
And it’s you’ve you’ve got that complete spectrum

428
00:19:00.680 –> 00:19:02.680
going from international to local.

429
00:19:02.680 –> 00:19:04.880
And, you know, you’re trying to create this amazing product.

430
00:19:05.560 –> 00:19:07.060
It’s it’s always going to be a challenge.

431
00:19:07.500 –> 00:19:09.460
And, you know, fans are difficult to please.

432
00:19:09.820 –> 00:19:11.720
But, you know, I was going to say, sorry, it’s interesting as well.

433
00:19:11.800 –> 00:19:13.980
I imagine you look, you love change in the last few years.

434
00:19:14.020 –> 00:19:16.000
But I always remember as well from when I worked there,

435
00:19:16.200 –> 00:19:18.020
that as much as yes, it’s a local fan base.

436
00:19:18.340 –> 00:19:19.700
There’s a lot of local people who moved away

437
00:19:19.700 –> 00:19:21.520
and come back regularly to the club.

438
00:19:21.680 –> 00:19:25.500
Like I have lived away for the last 20 years, but I still go back

439
00:19:25.500 –> 00:19:30.000
and friends in London who who were never even originally from Burnley.

440
00:19:30.080 –> 00:19:31.860
But the father chose them in the 60s

441
00:19:31.860 –> 00:19:35.480
and started to come like they really do come back to the club.

442
00:19:35.720 –> 00:19:36.460
And it’s a bad place.

443
00:19:36.580 –> 00:19:39.800
So you go around the world, you always meet someone from Burnley, 100 percent.

444
00:19:40.180 –> 00:19:40.780
It’s crazy.

445
00:19:41.080 –> 00:19:43.720
For small towns, Burnley, 100 percent.

446
00:19:45.460 –> 00:19:47.060
So yeah, Joe, you’re going to ask a question.

447
00:19:47.260 –> 00:19:50.040
No, I was going to because what you’ve just articulated

448
00:19:50.040 –> 00:19:54.380
is something that I talk about a lot with regards to entertainment,

449
00:19:55.180 –> 00:19:58.880
as in now you’ve got to have an ecosystem approach

450
00:19:58.880 –> 00:20:00.840
to any content that you’re making.

451
00:20:00.840 –> 00:20:03.740
You’ve got to have your approach for your social first fans.

452
00:20:04.000 –> 00:20:07.500
What how do you make content that satisfies those that want a 15 second

453
00:20:07.500 –> 00:20:11.540
quick piece of content on TikTok versus a six hour deep dive on YouTube

454
00:20:11.540 –> 00:20:12.740
and gaming and all of that?

455
00:20:12.980 –> 00:20:15.360
It requires this kind of ecosystem approach,

456
00:20:15.360 –> 00:20:19.980
and it’s similar to what you were saying with balancing local versus international.

457
00:20:20.980 –> 00:20:24.580
How are you seeing technology in football in general,

458
00:20:24.720 –> 00:20:27.480
but particularly in your role, how are you seeing technology

459
00:20:27.480 –> 00:20:32.000
facilitate that kind of multi platform approach that you need

460
00:20:32.000 –> 00:20:35.020
for all of those fans, whether they’re just down the road

461
00:20:35.020 –> 00:20:38.620
or they’re sitting in a different country in terms of the the content.

462
00:20:39.220 –> 00:20:42.240
And just in terms of how you get to know those fans,

463
00:20:42.240 –> 00:20:45.720
how do you then serve them with the right kind of content

464
00:20:45.720 –> 00:20:50.000
or just service from from Burnley, how are you joining all of those dots?

465
00:20:50.400 –> 00:20:54.820
Yeah, sure. I think when when we’re bringing platforms in into the club,

466
00:20:54.820 –> 00:20:57.680
we’re trying to make sure that they can all leverage data

467
00:20:57.680 –> 00:20:59.300
sets that we’re trying to build. Right.

468
00:21:00.480 –> 00:21:03.020
And, you know, those data sets should create the best picture

469
00:21:03.020 –> 00:21:05.980
and articulate of our fans that we possibly can.

470
00:21:06.600 –> 00:21:09.320
And, you know, I know our marketing team does a lot of work

471
00:21:09.320 –> 00:21:12.160
to try and identify fans in terms of how far away they are.

472
00:21:12.240 –> 00:21:13.920
You know, the tickets they buy, what kind of fans

473
00:21:13.920 –> 00:21:15.760
and they put them into the personas that you need.

474
00:21:16.460 –> 00:21:19.900
So the technology platforms that that that you bring in

475
00:21:19.900 –> 00:21:23.080
need to be able to supplement that and really enhance

476
00:21:23.080 –> 00:21:24.080
what they’re trying to do.

477
00:21:24.080 –> 00:21:27.880
So, you know, I wouldn’t say necessarily that

478
00:21:27.880 –> 00:21:30.360
there’s particular things that we’re doing.

479
00:21:30.360 –> 00:21:33.140
It’s just a general strategic approach, which is, you know,

480
00:21:33.140 –> 00:21:34.100
we need to go through everything.

481
00:21:34.860 –> 00:21:37.160
And all the fans want that

482
00:21:37.160 –> 00:21:40.660
and that personalised experience and that connection to the club.

483
00:21:41.280 –> 00:21:43.700
And, you know, through technology is the way we’re going to deliver it.

484
00:21:44.120 –> 00:21:48.320
And yeah, so I think that comes from the data side of what we’re doing,

485
00:21:48.340 –> 00:21:51.080
the digital platforms, you know,

486
00:21:51.280 –> 00:21:53.540
all the way through to streaming, all the way through to, you know,

487
00:21:53.540 –> 00:21:54.300
loyalty schemes.

488
00:21:54.560 –> 00:21:56.540
So, yeah, there’s a lot of facets that we’re trying to bring together.

489
00:21:56.720 –> 00:21:59.340
Ultimately, you kind of want the technology to be silent

490
00:21:59.340 –> 00:22:03.740
and working so well that it just kind of almost happens, doesn’t it?

491
00:22:03.900 –> 00:22:05.420
Oh, 100 per cent, just like a referee, right?

492
00:22:08.140 –> 00:22:09.980
The best technology is you don’t look like a referee.

493
00:22:11.060 –> 00:22:12.320
Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt.

494
00:22:12.780 –> 00:22:13.100
Yeah, yeah.

495
00:22:13.280 –> 00:22:16.280
And now let’s go over to Quick Five Questions with Joe.

496
00:22:17.160 –> 00:22:19.560
Right, Joe, we’re going to do Quick Five Questions now.

497
00:22:19.880 –> 00:22:21.120
We’ve both had a stab at this one.

498
00:22:21.120 –> 00:22:23.740
Well, you two have had a stab on this on the previous podcast.

499
00:22:25.580 –> 00:22:26.800
It went out, I mean, I’m good at one.

500
00:22:27.900 –> 00:22:28.840
You’re the first guest to do it.

501
00:22:28.840 –> 00:22:31.060
You’re the first guest anyway, so no pressure.

502
00:22:31.120 –> 00:22:32.300
You’ll probably do a better job than we did.

503
00:22:32.640 –> 00:22:33.600
So Quick Five Questions.

504
00:22:33.740 –> 00:22:34.800
You’ve got a minute to do it.

505
00:22:34.860 –> 00:22:36.700
We’ve got 15 questions to get through.

506
00:22:36.960 –> 00:22:38.280
Obviously, we’d like to get through all of them.

507
00:22:38.300 –> 00:22:41.320
So you’ve only got a minute, but also you might want to give context as well.

508
00:22:41.540 –> 00:22:42.420
So it’s entirely up to you.

509
00:22:42.540 –> 00:22:44.600
You’re not going to get a prize if you do all 15 in all of them.

510
00:22:46.080 –> 00:22:49.880
Right then. So when Will gives me the nod, we’ll be able to kick off.

511
00:22:49.880 –> 00:22:52.820
So starting now, first question from me.

512
00:22:53.020 –> 00:22:55.220
Moneyball recruiting, fact or fiction?

513
00:22:57.200 –> 00:22:58.200
I work in tech, fact.

514
00:22:59.500 –> 00:23:00.820
OK, me, second question.

515
00:23:01.520 –> 00:23:03.460
Biggest tech threat to football clubs?

516
00:23:04.360 –> 00:23:04.960
Cybersecurity.

517
00:23:06.340 –> 00:23:09.780
100,000 Burnley app users or a million social followers?

518
00:23:10.160 –> 00:23:10.800
App users.

519
00:23:11.940 –> 00:23:14.400
The biggest daily challenge you have as a CTL.

520
00:23:15.880 –> 00:23:16.720
Context, where, chief?

521
00:23:17.600 –> 00:23:19.300
Budget priority right now?

522
00:23:21.000 –> 00:23:21.640
Everything.

523
00:23:24.660 –> 00:23:27.900
Best leadership quality to succeed in a football club?

524
00:23:29.480 –> 00:23:30.120
Resilience.

525
00:23:31.060 –> 00:23:32.900
Innovation, top down or bottom up?

526
00:23:34.360 –> 00:23:35.960
Depends, going to sit on the fence.

527
00:23:37.540 –> 00:23:39.760
Biggest learning curve since starting at Burnley?

528
00:23:42.100 –> 00:23:43.660
Learning about the business of football.

529
00:23:43.660 –> 00:23:46.840
So boring, but it is massive news.

530
00:23:47.120 –> 00:23:48.500
I’ve got five, four, three.

531
00:23:48.500 –> 00:23:50.780
Oh, what’s the hardest channel to capture data from?

532
00:23:52.340 –> 00:23:54.300
Oh, I don’t know, TV.

533
00:23:54.500 –> 00:23:56.380
I have no idea, TV.

534
00:23:56.600 –> 00:23:59.040
I like that. TV, that’s a good one.

535
00:23:59.460 –> 00:24:00.260
Yeah, yeah, I like that.

536
00:24:00.340 –> 00:24:01.760
TV’s terrible to get to.

537
00:24:02.280 –> 00:24:04.040
That was much better this time, well done.

538
00:24:04.740 –> 00:24:05.420
Thanks for that, Joel.

539
00:24:05.420 –> 00:24:07.520
Well done, you’ve done the quickfire questions challenge.

540
00:24:07.840 –> 00:24:08.660
OK, awesome.

541
00:24:09.420 –> 00:24:10.420
Joe, thanks for doing that.

542
00:24:11.080 –> 00:24:14.420
At the moment, data fragmentation is a really hot topic.

543
00:24:15.300 –> 00:24:17.500
75% of clubs are yet to streamline

544
00:24:17.500 –> 00:24:21.060
sort of customer facing platforms with any sort of omnichannel experience.

545
00:24:21.580 –> 00:24:26.600
How are you approaching unifying customer data and customer interactions at Burnley?

546
00:24:27.380 –> 00:24:29.700
And also versus, you know, sorry, you’ve got in person

547
00:24:29.700 –> 00:24:33.400
and obviously online, because I imagine the club’s trying to do a lot with fans

548
00:24:33.400 –> 00:24:35.680
who never make it to the stadium as well.

549
00:24:35.860 –> 00:24:39.000
And how do you, you know, through the JJ Watts and the Dude Purpose?

550
00:24:39.000 –> 00:24:41.980
I mean, like, there’s a lot to take in there.

551
00:24:42.040 –> 00:24:43.620
So and you’ve got a lot of suppliers.

552
00:24:44.620 –> 00:24:46.960
So, you know, even down to live food and beverage,

553
00:24:47.140 –> 00:24:51.360
as we said before, in the stadium, like, you know, somebody’s buying something.

554
00:24:51.400 –> 00:24:53.000
How do you how do you register that?

555
00:24:53.000 –> 00:24:54.420
What’s the value exchange back?

556
00:24:54.660 –> 00:24:56.960
Because, you know, if there’s not something back on for them

557
00:24:56.960 –> 00:24:59.320
to scan a QR code, they’re not going to do it. Right.

558
00:24:59.400 –> 00:25:02.400
So you’ve got to be able to build those win win situations with the fans

559
00:25:02.400 –> 00:25:04.560
in order to be able to that value exchange is key

560
00:25:04.560 –> 00:25:08.220
in terms of giving the fans something so that you can get the data back

561
00:25:08.220 –> 00:25:10.220
so that it makes sense for everyone going forward.

562
00:25:10.660 –> 00:25:12.860
And also, you know, long down the road,

563
00:25:12.860 –> 00:25:15.420
it’s going to lead to that personalised experience that you talked about as well.

564
00:25:16.300 –> 00:25:19.580
I think, you know, part of it’s creating the right technology infrastructure,

565
00:25:19.700 –> 00:25:22.040
but really getting those right partners in who can work with us

566
00:25:22.040 –> 00:25:25.400
to be able to unify that data going forward, because we’re not

567
00:25:25.400 –> 00:25:29.340
we don’t have 50 developers, you know, so we’re not a technology business.

568
00:25:29.500 –> 00:25:30.080
We’re a football club.

569
00:25:30.260 –> 00:25:32.220
So we’ve got to partner with the right technology businesses

570
00:25:32.220 –> 00:25:33.900
and create that infrastructure going forward.

571
00:25:34.420 –> 00:25:37.400
So I think that’s one of the key things that you’ve really got to look at

572
00:25:37.400 –> 00:25:39.680
is how do you build that going forward

573
00:25:39.680 –> 00:25:42.400
and create that ownership and access that data for us?

574
00:25:44.040 –> 00:25:45.800
AI is going to be brilliant for this as well, right?

575
00:25:45.800 –> 00:25:49.040
Going forwards, you know, I think in terms of unifying data

576
00:25:49.040 –> 00:25:52.120
where you’ve got disparate data sets that haven’t joined together naturally

577
00:25:52.120 –> 00:25:56.460
very easily previously, you can look at technology solutions

578
00:25:56.460 –> 00:25:59.920
to bring that together now and really kind of like hyper, you know,

579
00:26:00.940 –> 00:26:04.560
hyper focus in terms of the data that you’re looking to aggregate together.

580
00:26:04.560 –> 00:26:08.460
I’m really interested in when you when you’re unifying this data,

581
00:26:08.960 –> 00:26:10.920
who then uses it in the club?

582
00:26:11.180 –> 00:26:13.500
Is it something that you sit down with?

583
00:26:13.700 –> 00:26:16.260
Have you got a data scientist or is it the marketing teams?

584
00:26:16.820 –> 00:26:18.840
When you. That’s it.

585
00:26:19.940 –> 00:26:21.400
Data scientists as well.

586
00:26:21.720 –> 00:26:22.680
Yeah, many hats.

587
00:26:23.820 –> 00:26:25.600
Look, we’ve got we’ve got a head of strategy

588
00:26:25.600 –> 00:26:27.100
who’s really kind of data nature.

589
00:26:27.560 –> 00:26:29.780
Our marketing teams are really data heavy as well.

590
00:26:29.840 –> 00:26:33.460
So like this isn’t just like a single kind of, you know,

591
00:26:33.460 –> 00:26:34.440
pillar within the business.

592
00:26:34.660 –> 00:26:37.780
There’s data like, you know, modern organisation should have data,

593
00:26:37.820 –> 00:26:38.960
you know, throughout the entire.

594
00:26:39.080 –> 00:26:39.520
Absolutely.

595
00:26:39.900 –> 00:26:41.540
And, you know, especially in the football side,

596
00:26:41.540 –> 00:26:42.860
they’ve got data specialists as well.

597
00:26:43.280 –> 00:26:45.040
So, you know, really, you’ve just got to figure out

598
00:26:45.040 –> 00:26:47.840
like how like making sure that everyone’s data literature

599
00:26:47.840 –> 00:26:48.500
and bring it together.

600
00:26:48.940 –> 00:26:51.780
What are we asked what metrics you’re reporting on?

601
00:26:51.820 –> 00:26:55.360
So like when you report up, you know, what sort of key metrics

602
00:26:55.360 –> 00:26:58.840
that you what’s a success and what’s a successful month in your job?

603
00:26:59.180 –> 00:27:01.380
And that is that it might be something you can’t name,

604
00:27:02.040 –> 00:27:03.200
but it’s only metrics you can name.

605
00:27:03.200 –> 00:27:05.360
But it’s everything from kind of like, you know,

606
00:27:05.440 –> 00:27:07.080
making sure that the networks don’t fall down.

607
00:27:07.620 –> 00:27:09.760
Making sure that we’re not getting, you know,

608
00:27:09.860 –> 00:27:13.460
making sure that cybersecurity is OK and making sure that,

609
00:27:13.460 –> 00:27:15.060
you know, the digital platforms are robust,

610
00:27:15.280 –> 00:27:16.860
making sure that data quality is high.

611
00:27:17.160 –> 00:27:20.240
I mean, there’s lots of different areas that we focus on

612
00:27:20.920 –> 00:27:23.680
from a technology perspective, just to make sure that,

613
00:27:23.680 –> 00:27:25.660
you know, we’re kind of healthy going forward.

614
00:27:26.300 –> 00:27:28.080
You kind of said at the beginning,

615
00:27:28.280 –> 00:27:29.940
technology was one of the key pillars

616
00:27:30.460 –> 00:27:32.200
of when the new ownership came in.

617
00:27:32.720 –> 00:27:37.420
What is the sort of like North Star goal for you as in technology?

618
00:27:37.760 –> 00:27:39.060
What is it you’re driving out?

619
00:27:39.180 –> 00:27:42.080
What is what is the ultimate purpose for your role at the moment?

620
00:27:43.100 –> 00:27:45.160
And what’s a success look like for you?

621
00:27:45.420 –> 00:27:46.820
How would you measure that?

622
00:27:47.320 –> 00:27:51.080
I mean, ultimately, like, you know, ultimately, a success on the pitch.

623
00:27:51.460 –> 00:27:54.100
Yeah. And, you know, fun, fun, happiness.

624
00:27:54.560 –> 00:27:56.520
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good answer.

625
00:27:57.000 –> 00:27:58.020
I’m not happy.

626
00:27:58.900 –> 00:27:59.960
I mean, you got it. Yeah.

627
00:27:59.960 –> 00:28:02.800
You’ve you’ve definitely like if you haven’t got that bigger North Star

628
00:28:02.800 –> 00:28:05.980
from a technical perspective, then you’re not really kind of like

629
00:28:05.980 –> 00:28:07.440
you haven’t got your eye on the big picture.

630
00:28:07.980 –> 00:28:11.060
Yeah. So I was going to say, it’s also tremendously difficult, right?

631
00:28:11.840 –> 00:28:13.820
Because what happens on the pitch matters too.

632
00:28:13.840 –> 00:28:16.640
And I think I think what we find at the moment with the manager,

633
00:28:16.700 –> 00:28:19.100
he feels like he has a connection with the fans.

634
00:28:19.320 –> 00:28:22.040
He’s he’s a very respectful individual as well.

635
00:28:22.140 –> 00:28:23.880
Very calm in the way he goes about things.

636
00:28:24.080 –> 00:28:26.920
And he feels like whether we win, lose or draw,

637
00:28:27.080 –> 00:28:29.680
he’s building a team that he’s having a connection with the fans as well.

638
00:28:29.960 –> 00:28:34.420
And I guess what you’re trying to do is then build around that,

639
00:28:34.520 –> 00:28:35.960
have the right individuals in that space.

640
00:28:35.980 –> 00:28:38.000
Then you can build around that to have the infrastructure in place

641
00:28:38.000 –> 00:28:40.460
to capitalise on what they’re doing as well, right?

642
00:28:40.480 –> 00:28:44.020
Because it is where the ball bounces does matter as well.

643
00:28:44.180 –> 00:28:46.340
Yeah, massively, you know,

644
00:28:46.480 –> 00:28:49.380
a lot of what the fans react to is what happens on the pitch.

645
00:28:49.800 –> 00:28:52.940
Yeah. So, you know, that football centristy of just making sure

646
00:28:52.940 –> 00:28:55.800
that, you know, everything that you’re doing is trying to drive

647
00:28:55.800 –> 00:28:59.100
that football element going forward, but also, you know,

648
00:28:59.100 –> 00:29:00.560
looking at the fan experience, right?

649
00:29:00.940 –> 00:29:05.180
You know, if you turn up to turf more and it’s not an actual nice experience,

650
00:29:05.300 –> 00:29:08.880
but they’re winning on the pitch, you’re not really making the benefit.

651
00:29:09.060 –> 00:29:11.180
So there’s work for the fans as well, right?

652
00:29:11.260 –> 00:29:12.800
You know, there’s a football centrist who goes out.

653
00:29:12.820 –> 00:29:14.080
There’s a fan centrist too as well, right?

654
00:29:14.360 –> 00:29:18.060
Yes, yeah, I think that’s really a really great point

655
00:29:18.060 –> 00:29:21.540
on which to rap, because we talk about it a lot here.

656
00:29:21.860 –> 00:29:24.380
You know, we really should be doing everything in service of the fan.

657
00:29:24.420 –> 00:29:26.260
But sometimes you can’t see the wood for the trees.

658
00:29:27.040 –> 00:29:30.120
Technology sometimes, as you said, can be style over substance.

659
00:29:30.180 –> 00:29:31.200
It can be jazz hands.

660
00:29:31.280 –> 00:29:36.100
But actually, ultimately, it has to come down to improving that fan experience.

661
00:29:36.640 –> 00:29:39.900
So just before we finish, what’s the one piece of advice

662
00:29:39.900 –> 00:29:44.060
you’d share with the industry about tech innovation in football?

663
00:29:44.680 –> 00:29:47.520
You in your in your capacity as CTO of Burnley,

664
00:29:47.560 –> 00:29:49.400
what’s that one bit of advice you’d give someone?

665
00:29:50.400 –> 00:29:53.160
For some for somebody coming in to my role,

666
00:29:53.160 –> 00:29:56.260
I’d definitely say it’s about partnerships.

667
00:29:57.640 –> 00:30:01.220
So, again, as I said, we’re not going to have 100 developers

668
00:30:01.220 –> 00:30:03.280
building our own technology infrastructure.

669
00:30:03.580 –> 00:30:06.140
It’s about how do you bring those partnerships together

670
00:30:06.140 –> 00:30:08.720
to create a coherent story about where you’re trying to go

671
00:30:08.720 –> 00:30:10.280
and bring them on the journey as well.

672
00:30:10.640 –> 00:30:13.560
That’s super important, is letting the partners know

673
00:30:13.560 –> 00:30:16.160
where you’re going as well and what your aspirations are,

674
00:30:16.580 –> 00:30:18.280
because, you know, they’re businesses as well,

675
00:30:18.280 –> 00:30:21.720
and they just want to get be part of, you know, what success means to us.

676
00:30:21.720 –> 00:30:24.760
So a lot of it’s around storytelling and bring your partners on board.

677
00:30:25.000 –> 00:30:27.100
So I’d say that’s a really kind of key thing going forward.

678
00:30:28.300 –> 00:30:29.760
There’s a lot of talking about anonymous founder.

679
00:30:29.880 –> 00:30:32.180
How do you actually uncover who is an anonymous fan?

680
00:30:32.380 –> 00:30:35.400
Because the people that might transact, that might attend,

681
00:30:35.440 –> 00:30:38.340
but you don’t physically always know who they are.

682
00:30:38.900 –> 00:30:41.980
How what tactics are you using to try and actually identify these people?

683
00:30:42.120 –> 00:30:44.460
Are there things that you’re putting in place to to try

684
00:30:44.460 –> 00:30:47.680
to have a view of that individual, have a view of me as an individual,

685
00:30:47.740 –> 00:30:48.860
all the different things that I do?

686
00:30:48.880 –> 00:30:51.300
How do you how do you even start to go about that?

687
00:30:51.300 –> 00:30:53.700
Do you mean in terms of just

688
00:30:54.340 –> 00:30:57.480
we don’t know anything about you apart from your transaction?

689
00:30:57.560 –> 00:30:58.200
Essentially, yeah.

690
00:30:59.000 –> 00:31:02.660
Uh, I mean, there’s there’s things we need to do as a club.

691
00:31:02.980 –> 00:31:04.920
So if you buy a ticket, we need to know more about you.

692
00:31:05.040 –> 00:31:06.220
We need to know where you live, right?

693
00:31:06.380 –> 00:31:08.040
We need to know like that kind of information.

694
00:31:08.240 –> 00:31:09.740
So there’s there’s stuff that we have to have.

695
00:31:09.980 –> 00:31:13.000
And again, if you’re going to read, if you got an e-com purchase,

696
00:31:13.480 –> 00:31:14.800
like we have to send it somewhere.

697
00:31:14.860 –> 00:31:15.580
Yeah. Yeah.

698
00:31:15.660 –> 00:31:17.460
We don’t know if that’s actually your address.

699
00:31:17.560 –> 00:31:19.100
Your billing address is probably your address.

700
00:31:19.100 –> 00:31:22.980
You know, so you do you do collect information

701
00:31:22.980 –> 00:31:25.180
just off the natural life ways that we do business.

702
00:31:25.440 –> 00:31:28.260
Like a transaction has to have certain amounts of data being able to pass.

703
00:31:28.280 –> 00:31:30.260
So you’re going to gather that information going forward.

704
00:31:30.920 –> 00:31:33.480
There is that there’s a lot of companies coming,

705
00:31:33.580 –> 00:31:37.800
like talking about a lot more like I see about knowing your customer

706
00:31:37.800 –> 00:31:41.860
around, you know, you know, everything from facial recognition

707
00:31:41.860 –> 00:31:44.520
and just, you know, how do you bring that together?

708
00:31:44.860 –> 00:31:45.740
But really understanding.

709
00:31:45.740 –> 00:31:49.420
And, you know, it’s it’s an interesting one.

710
00:31:49.460 –> 00:31:52.680
It really, really is, because, you know, you’re looking at the ticketing side

711
00:31:52.680 –> 00:31:55.460
as well and, you know, you want to get rid of touting.

712
00:31:56.260 –> 00:31:58.700
So, you know, and fans want to get rid of touting as well.

713
00:31:58.700 –> 00:31:59.420
They don’t want it.

714
00:31:59.580 –> 00:32:02.380
So how do you do that without understanding more about your customer,

715
00:32:02.840 –> 00:32:05.800
about your fan, about understanding and identifying exactly who they are?

716
00:32:05.840 –> 00:32:07.560
They’re just like you’ve got to you’ve got this

717
00:32:07.560 –> 00:32:09.000
is where I can sell my ticket back.

718
00:32:09.020 –> 00:32:11.180
Yeah. And I don’t always get to the amount of games I’d like.

719
00:32:11.260 –> 00:32:12.740
So I have been regularly doing that now.

720
00:32:12.740 –> 00:32:14.100
Sometimes it sells, sometimes it doesn’t.

721
00:32:14.180 –> 00:32:15.320
Right. That’s just based on demand.

722
00:32:15.320 –> 00:32:18.740
But at least then I know that it’s going to a real fan

723
00:32:18.740 –> 00:32:20.340
fan, somebody who’s already on the database.

724
00:32:20.800 –> 00:32:24.060
Yes. And, you know, I’m getting effectively the pro rotted amount

725
00:32:24.060 –> 00:32:25.380
that I’ve spent on my season ticket.

726
00:32:25.400 –> 00:32:27.420
And it’s a really painless experience.

727
00:32:27.780 –> 00:32:29.960
And again, that’s getting rid of touts.

728
00:32:29.960 –> 00:32:31.240
That’s an example for you straight away.

729
00:32:31.500 –> 00:32:32.200
Yeah, yeah, 100 percent.

730
00:32:32.460 –> 00:32:34.860
So I think, you know, there is elements here

731
00:32:34.860 –> 00:32:38.840
where you learn more about your fans, but actually benefits fans themselves,

732
00:32:38.840 –> 00:32:43.080
because fans want more fans to be part of this.

733
00:32:43.080 –> 00:32:46.760
Right. And and there is there’s an element where we need to understand

734
00:32:46.760 –> 00:32:49.800
more about our fans in order to be able to provide the next level of experiences.

735
00:32:49.940 –> 00:32:52.240
It’s interesting because that near me,

736
00:32:52.740 –> 00:32:54.780
I’m actually trusting it out of the Amazon fresh shops,

737
00:32:54.780 –> 00:32:57.620
you know, where you go in, it’s just literally you don’t face pain.

738
00:32:57.920 –> 00:33:00.220
You literally go in, you scan a QR code and that’s it.

739
00:33:00.220 –> 00:33:02.180
You go around, pick up all your shopping items, go to the till

740
00:33:02.180 –> 00:33:03.540
and it’s done. Then you walk out.

741
00:33:03.680 –> 00:33:05.140
You don’t even walk to the till, you just walk out.

742
00:33:05.440 –> 00:33:08.840
So, like you said, the technology is already there to enable that.

743
00:33:08.940 –> 00:33:11.100
It’s just it’d be interesting to see how people embrace that.

744
00:33:11.100 –> 00:33:15.280
But I do like the angle of, you know, especially me being a Man United fan.

745
00:33:15.400 –> 00:33:16.800
Like, it’s very hard to get tickets.

746
00:33:16.960 –> 00:33:18.500
You know, it’s very hard, I say, because, you know,

747
00:33:18.500 –> 00:33:21.320
if it’s friends who’ve got season ticket holders and you get it through them,

748
00:33:21.320 –> 00:33:23.300
like actually, how are you going to grow your international audience

749
00:33:23.300 –> 00:33:26.320
if you can’t give tickets back to the clubs to then give to your

750
00:33:26.320 –> 00:33:28.720
international fans or your fans who are further away?

751
00:33:28.880 –> 00:33:30.560
So I think it’s a really, really interesting.

752
00:33:30.600 –> 00:33:32.180
And I think that ability to be able to do that.

753
00:33:32.260 –> 00:33:35.060
And that’s just one example of there has been around for a long, long time.

754
00:33:35.180 –> 00:33:37.340
I remember that when I was there 20 years ago,

755
00:33:37.360 –> 00:33:39.680
we put a ticketed system in existed,

756
00:33:39.680 –> 00:33:44.280
but the club didn’t enact a strategy to actually work out how to use it.

757
00:33:44.640 –> 00:33:45.720
Well, thank you, Joe.

758
00:33:46.340 –> 00:33:48.500
It’s been really interesting, really enjoyed talking to you.

759
00:33:48.540 –> 00:33:49.660
And hopefully people have learnt a lot.

760
00:33:49.840 –> 00:33:50.860
I’ve been Lee Radbourne.

761
00:33:51.100 –> 00:33:51.780
I’ve been Ed Abis

762
00:33:52.220 –> 00:33:53.100
And I’m Jo Redfern.

763
00:33:53.220 –> 00:33:55.800
And if you want to contact us, you can email us on

764
00:33:59.260 –> 00:33:59.860
ATTENTIONSHIFT.MEDIA

765
00:33:59.860 –> 00:34:01.200
He’s looking at producer Will there.

766
00:34:01.980 –> 00:34:02.860
Let’s try again.

767
00:34:03.160 –> 00:34:05.140
It’s hello at ATTENTIONSHIFT.MEDIA.

768
00:34:05.440 –> 00:34:06.000
Thanks, guys.

769
00:34:07.100 –> 00:34:11.300
So that’s it for this episode of the ATTENTION SHIFT.

770
00:34:11.400 –> 00:34:13.840
Remember to like and subscribe and listen in next time.

771
00:34:14.000 –> 00:34:19.020
And do let us know what you think on hello at ATTENTIONSHIFT.MEDIA.

772
00:34:19.340 –> 00:34:22.420
That’s hello*ATTENTIONSHIFT.MEDIA.