Summary

• Sports’ Creator Copy-Paste Problem: Why the NBA flying in 200 creators for All-Star Weekend — many of the same faces from the Super Bowl — risks turning a bold strategy into standard operating procedure, and what leagues need to do before creator fatigue sets in.
• PSG’s Running Club Gamble: Why Paris Saint-Germain’s Mo Farah-fronted global run club on Strava could be a blueprint for building international fandom beyond matchdays — and whether any other club will be brave enough to follow them into a completely different pond.
• Fan Data — Multiplier or Myth?: BCG’s research confirms that top franchises know 60% of their fans while some clubs know as little as 1% — but is the industry serious about using that data to serve fans better, or just finding a new way to extract cash from them?
• Apple Enters the Video Podcast War: Apple’s late push into video podcasting with dynamic ad insertion takes on YouTube and Spotify — but with the horse already bolted, is this genuine innovation or a me-too move that only benefits the platform?
• The Creator Authenticity Time Bomb: As Publicis launches a new sports creator unit ahead of the World Cup, Ed and Jo warn that flooding sport with mismatched creators chasing commission checks could destroy the trust that makes creator strategies work — and Gen Z will be the first to call it out.

Show Notes

• Winter Olympics 26′ Milano Cortina – Elmo & Cookie Monster
• Boston Consultancy Group – Beyond Media Rights: A Whole New Ballgame for Sports

Transcription

Ed Abis (00:00.958)
Hello and welcome to the Attention Shift podcast. I’ve got Joe Redfern here with me who’s fresh from visiting Portugal and having a chance encounter with Bruno Fernandes on the flight home. We have to address the elephant in the room though other than that because that’s not the most important story of the day. Lee Redfern Joe, what’s happened to him?

Jo (00:18.956)
Lee Radbourne, not Lee Redfern. Yeah, well, Lee, so lovely Lee. Yes, taking a short hiatus. He might pop back in every once in a while, but gone and got himself a shiny new job, which involves him moving away. yeah, thanks for your short tenure, Lee.

Ed Abis (00:20.33)
Oh, Lee Redfern, I’ve just married you. That’s, that’s, sorry. That’s a shocking start to the podcast. You’re never gonna get over that.

Jo (00:43.374)
Anyway, it doesn’t mean that you and I get more time to natter, which is great. And yes, I did meet Bruno Fernandes today on a flight back from Portugal. I confess being married to a massive Man United fan, he was the most giddy I’ve ever seen him after fist pumping him on the way past the whole way back from Portugal. Anyway, let’s not digress. Let’s get in. Five stories, five minutes as usual. I’m going to kick off NBA All-Star Weekend. Fresh off the back of the Super Bowl.

Ed Abis (01:02.984)
Nope. Here we go.

Jo (01:12.044)
Legendary February, apparently it’s being called by NBC Universal. I don’t know if I would class it as legendary, but all-star weekend. Super Sunday. But the NBA very much copied the Super Bowl creator playbook, I thought. mean, even down to some of the same creators, the same list of names. It all smelt and tasted a bit familiar, do you not think?

Ed Abis (01:15.295)
New one.

Ed Abis (01:19.934)
No, doesn’t sound as good as Super Sunday, does it? No.

Ed Abis (01:42.43)
Yeah, I mean, we’ve definitely seen this one before.

Jo (01:44.878)
But it worked for flag football. So the creators, as we mentioned in last episode, the creators were all stacked against flag football.

and it hit 14 million live views, which was double last year’s numbers. I really think the NFL are doubling down on football. I think that could really work for them, not just for their creator play, but on their international expansion. But now the NBA’s done something similar, flown over 200 creators in for All-Star weekend, behind the scenes stuff. Apparently some of them even slept in the arena.

Ed Abis (02:18.792)
Imagine being on that plane.

Jo (02:23.148)
Listen, let me just have my Bruno Fernandes mood. But really, are we saying now that unless you have a creator strategy around your sports events, really, you’re done for? Discuss.

Ed Abis (02:39.048)
Well, so I think what they’re making clear now is that fans don’t come to you anymore. Leagues go to them to try and win the day, right? Ultimately, that’s what they’re looking at. And I think if we’re looking at the numbers they got for the flag football at the tallers, which was 40 million live views compared to the Pro Bowl, which has become less and less important every year. And that’s not just viewership, I think. I think it’s also the fact that the quality of play that they’re getting in the Pro Bowl, if I can get my words out, is diminishing every year.

Jo (02:55.534)
Mm-hmm.

Ed Abis (03:08.852)
but it’s clear that they feel like that kind of cultural and lifestyle cut through is where they see a viewership going. But yeah, it’s interesting that they’ve gone after similar creators and ultimately they are not the only creators that exist, right? So we could do probably with a bit more creativity when it comes to creators, I’d say, if you’re gonna be doing this kind of strategy.

Jo (03:29.038)
Yeah, it feels a little bit like it’s become standard operating procedure for MBA and NFL and I kind of get it, but if you replicate that too much, then where’s your unique proposition? Again, it all starts to feel a little bit samey. So, I mean, there was a bit of me that was a little bit disappointed in the lack of creativity around the creator strategy, but…

Is this them finally admitting that they can’t do without creators? I’d say so wouldn’t you?

Ed Abis (04:05.098)
Well, the NBA said themselves that creators are the only reliable way that they think they can reach Gen Z now. So, I mean, the fact that they’ve come out and said it and admitted it. And I think, you know, I think sometimes like you say, he’s ultimately, I guess, acknowledging a problem is how you solve a problem, right? And that’s what they’ve done. I think from my perspective, I think if they’re going to go down that road of using the same creators, that’s fine, but not all the time, because you’ll soon get fatigue and…

Jo (04:11.043)
Mm-hmm.

Jo (04:19.789)
Mm.

Ed Abis (04:30.846)
And I think you lose the credibility when you keep using the same people too. Cause look, there are so many people out there that have got an ability to reach an audience that it doesn’t have to be the same lot all the time. And I think we need to see a bit of creativity around that for sure.

Jo (04:30.915)
Yeah, yeah.

Jo (04:44.92)
Do you think that that creativity will come? Do you think that it’s just been because that we’ve had the Super Bowl and the NBA All-Stars?

event so close together or do you think it is because there’s a lack in the competency at leagues where they’re just like look we need to create strategy okay we’ll just pay this bunch they happen to be the same bunch that were around the Super Bowl and tick I do sometimes think that that is the the approach to it it’s just like yeah yeah who are those right okay we’ve been recommended those by our agency tick let’s hire those we’re done

Ed Abis (05:20.286)
Yeah, think we’ve obviously we’ve had a little bit of what NBC are doing as well, I think around Milano or Cortina and there’s been a bit of a change there. They’ve gone with obviously with the Kelsey’s because I think it’s been both of them doing some stuff on that and Snoop Dogg’s reared his head again. So obviously created a bit in a different way.

Jo (05:36.545)
Can I just say that I would say Elmo and Cookie Monster are my favourite creators around Milan and Cortina. You can keep your curses, give me mopits. Give me mopits every day. Hi Ed!

Ed Abis (05:42.826)
That’s one’s missed me so far. You’ll to send me that.

Ed Abis (05:52.266)
We’re going have to get that in the show notes because I’ve definitely not seen that one and I need to see exactly what they’re doing around the Olympics. Yeah, I missed that one. It’s interesting Ryan, think athletes will be creating a lot of content around this and you know, if I’m thinking about the Olympics, I’d love to see more stuff from the athletes actually activating what’s going on around certainly the Olympics and also around obviously the NBA All-Star weekend and…

Jo (05:57.901)
You need to go watch a bit of Elmo and Cookie Monster. They are absolutely brilliant.

Jo (06:19.713)
Mm.

Ed Abis (06:20.921)
and the Super Bowl as well. think we’ll find over time that there will start to be a balance where you’ll have your creators doing certain things and then you’ll have your athletes as creators doing things as well and then you’ll have other celebrities and you’ll start to get more of a mix. I think everyone’s piling on creators at the moment because it’s the Vogue thing to do.

Jo (06:34.977)
Yes.

Yeah, that’s a really good point actually. Overreliance on creators and do you eclipse the athletes and actually you want some of your athletes superstars to shine through too. So yeah, let’s hope it does rebalance in the future. Right, okay. Come on, we’re at time. What’s next?

Ed Abis (06:52.425)
Are we on time? Right then. So the Boston Consulting Group, know, the very same, I’ve just published some research that backs up what we’ve been talking about in the anonymous fan index, we being display. I also had a chat with Ben today from PTI Digital, which is going to be in a podcast that’s coming up, an interview with him where they’re saying that basically that there’s a whole new ball game for sports now around media rights. It’s still the biggest revenue driver, but the real growth is now coming from direct fan relationships. Funny that when we’ve just been chatting about that.

Jo (07:08.949)
Love them.

Ed Abis (07:22.003)
Their data shown is a massive dispersion in commercial performance. So yeah, look, the top franchises, top teams in the leagues are generating twice the amount of sponsorship as the sort of the bottom teams. But the real big disparities is, you know, those bigger teams with the bigger resources saying that ultimately they know about 60 % of their fans. I’d argue that’s not the truth. When you get down to the bottom, you’re talking about some of them saying that they only know about 1 % of the fans. So again,

Jo (07:44.568)
Yeah.

Jo (07:48.568)
Bye.

Ed Abis (07:51.21)
It’s interesting that they did this and obviously we did our research and Peter did theirs as well and there’s other stuff out there too, right, but everyone’s saying the same thing and I think people are being, it’s good that people are being honest about this as well, so what do you think?

Jo (08:05.344)
to mind when when you mentioned that disparity between the top franchises or teams and clubs knowing much more of their fans obviously they’ve got the ability and the resources to put those infrastructures in and hopefully the skill set then to convert more of those fans does this create a two-tier system though where the ones at the bottom who haven’t got as much resource to do that will be left trailing and they’re unable to convert

to knowing more than one or 2 % of their fans because of that kind of K curve, you’ve got the top, know, rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I do wonder if that is a bit of a risk, particularly if you’re someone like the Premier League when as a whole, you’ve got to look at your global footprint and actually it’s in your interest for all boats to rise and all teams within your league to succeed. So that was the first thing that came to mind when you were just talking about that. The other thing that comes to mind is

if media rights are going to stay the biggest revenue driver, but proportionally, they’re not going to grow as much as these other areas that have been left kind of undermined.

Where is the growth gonna come from? Is it just gonna come from we want to gather more data on those fans and we just want to monetize the data or we want to sell the data to sponsors? Or are they actually gonna use that data to understand who the fan is and better serve them? This is what I’m not always clear on. When they say that it’s gonna be growth from getting to know the fan and from more direct fan relationships, what does that mean in practice, Ed? Enlighten me.

Ed Abis (09:43.626)
God, where does that start? So BCG in their own words confirmed that Fandata is one of the biggest growth opportunities for sports organisations. Now they’re saying that’s going to come through fan engagement being one of those key monetisation multipliers. And again, it always worries me when I hear that too, it’s kind of like, again, like when someone comes out and says, we’ve got a fan engagement strategy, it’s kind of like, is that not literally your sole purpose in life?

Jo (10:07.106)
I know. What the hell does it mean?

Ed Abis (10:11.593)
to engage fans, that’s literally what you’re meant to do. So I’m guessing what they mean by that is ultimately starting to have a better view of who the fan is with multiple data points, understanding what experiences that fan wants, the various different touch points across the business, to then truly use that data to offer up compelling offers that a fan wants.

Jo (10:15.351)
Mm.

Jo (10:40.727)
Yes.

Ed Abis (10:40.883)
But if you’re gonna do that though, it’s gotta be based on a value exchange. It’s not just like, you ate hot dogs, you want another three. That’s not compelling. It’s like start to understand through their different habits. It’s almost like that predictive nature started to understand what is it they might be interested in based on these other things they did over here. And again, back to that conversation we’ve been earlier today, it feels like from his experience and he’s got way more experience than I have that the…

Jo (10:49.698)
Yeah.

Jo (10:55.778)
Mm.

Ed Abis (11:09.097)
is just not interconnected for most organizations, even the big ones to be able to do that yet.

Jo (11:13.678)
God, right, okay. I think what you’re talking about is really idealistic and my heart of heart, I really want that to be the case. I think it’s wishful thinking. Now the skeptic in me is like, it’s not really gonna be used to create a more compelling value exchange with a fan. It’s gonna be used to try and extract some more cash from them.

Ed Abis (11:21.01)
Yeah.

Ed Abis (11:36.137)
Ultimately that, you know, I mean, I don’t know how to answer that other than say I agree with you. There was a case study and he probably needs delve into a little bit more, but the Philadelphia 76ers, which were part of the BCG’s own research here, and I want to delve into this too, said that there was a case through there. They ran 125 targeted fan campaigns and they said they increased participation by 15 % by doing these targeted fan campaigns.

Jo (11:40.567)
Hahaha

Jo (11:49.793)
Yeah.

Jo (11:56.462)
Mm.

Ed Abis (12:02.02)
And they use that data then to land a major presenting sponsorship. Now, again, I’d love to get into the detail of what that actually meant. Was that surveys? Was that, I mean, what was that participation? And I think we can try and dig that out. And Will’s gonna probably kill me for saying this, but stick that in the show notes too, so people can have a read themselves. Because there is a case study that exists off the back of that. I think, yeah, it’s…

Jo (12:02.285)
Okay.

Jo (12:09.599)
Mm.

Jo (12:16.823)
Mm.

Jo (12:24.942)
Mm.

Ed Abis (12:29.478)
I think we need more tangible things to ultimately back some of this stuff up. Because I think, look, I think, again, to confirm what we all think and what we’ve been told by sports execs, we ultimately want to see some sort of tangible results on the back of that, which I think gets us up to five minutes on that so we can move on.

Jo (12:32.247)
Yes.

Jo (12:44.994)
Yeah.

Okay, I’m gonna put a pin in that, but I’m gonna stay skeptical until I see something that is really reassuring. That this growth in fan data and direct relationships isn’t just another, let’s screw them over play. Anyway, let’s move on. Talk to me about running.

Ed Abis (12:56.134)
Nothing wrong with skeptical.

Ed Abis (13:01.926)
Nothing wrong with that. Some would say we agree far too much anyway. So it’s so good that we do disagree. We’re going to, we’re going to agree, agree disagreeably. Yeah. So the next story that I really, really like is PSG. So they have launched a global running program with Mo Farah. So PSG for anyone who doesn’t know, he’s Paris Saint-Germain. PSG running. As any, for anyone who knows they’ve been a long time partner of Nike now, Nike have done some amazing activations at PSG down the years. So they brought in Sir Mo Farah to be the ambassador and they’re running an international run club.

which is not rocket science really if you think about it, starting in London of all places, not Paris, as part of a Strava community in March. And they’re gonna be bringing back We Run Paris in June, which attracted 10,000 runners in 2023. So with Nike as a partner and 180 supporters clubs across 22 countries, they’re trying to build these daily touch points where fans who might only attend two or three matches a year, so that all the ones that don’t live necessarily in France can run three or four times a week.

Jo (13:44.397)
Yep.

Ed Abis (13:59.625)
three or four times a week, sorry, but wearing club gear. So they still show their support for the club, but by participating in a completely different way. Discuss.

Jo (14:10.616)
There’s part of me that really loves this because it’s looking broad. It’s looking kind of laterally. And this was something that came up when I heard someone from PSG talk at SportsPro Media in Madrid. And I left there with the impression that actually they’re casting their net wide. They’re looking at different areas. They’re going fishing in different ponds.

Ed Abis (14:35.026)
They’ve opened up stores across the world like New York the PSG store, London the PSG store. They’ve tried to get out of their core.

Jo (14:39.848)
Yeah, and you know what? Yeah, and when I lived in Vancouver, there were PSG soccer schools in Vancouver. They were very visible there. So this is I like what they do and I like how they look at that. But then I kind of come up against OK, so I understand why they’re looking at the running community.

It’s a massive, mean, know, running is huge. The running market worth $8 billion by all accounts. So there’s potential for revenue there, but there’s also building in communities where they can have that daily touch point. This is where I break down. Why would I run in Paris, Saint-Germain colours?

Ed Abis (15:23.272)
Yeah, I think that was just part of the press release to be fair. I mean, I’m not sure if people will be running in power. But the idea is that you’re coming together with, guess, I guess the idea is you’re coming together with other like-minded people that have a love for PSG and everything it stands for.

Jo (15:25.326)
Is it?

It’s just hard to run by a different name.

Jo (15:38.158)
Yeah, you know, kind of get that. mean, how do you get into a Strava community that’s running under the PSG banner? And what does it mean to you if I’m in South Manchester and I’m thinking, yeah, I’m going to have a go at this? What relevance is it to me? What is it going to bring me?

Ed Abis (15:55.794)
think I’d be scared to be running around in PSG in South Manchester, I’m not gonna lie. Yeah, look, they clearly know, again, we’re coming back to the BCG thing, you would imagine they have data on fans that they have internationally to be able to start this process. And all it needs, guess, is one person in a major city.

Jo (16:01.378)
I’ll let you know if I bump into anyone.

Jo (16:19.032)
Thank

Ed Abis (16:24.028)
that’s a PSG fan and the reality is there are club, you know, groups of people around the world that come together to watch their favourite team, right? So it starts like that and then it starts to build, I guess. Look, I think that they are building a, I think PSG are setting a blueprint for how you can nurture fandom globally that’s different to the way that people normally do this. Like no other football club’s thought to do this and it’s the easiest thing in the world, right? Play one foot into the other and go for a run.

Jo (16:51.65)
Well, yeah, and kudos to them for looking at it. What I guess I would like to see is how it joins up and means something.

to that person then who is gonna log as part of this whatever it is, Strava community, what does it mean to them then? How are they gonna start building this community? So we’ll see how it plays out. But it’d be really interesting to see if other smaller clubs might, I mean, given that running is super popular, are there gonna be some followers if they’re first to market? Who else is gonna hop on this bandwagon?

Ed Abis (17:24.028)
It… I mean, it feels totally… I don’t get the Mo Farah PSG Connect because Mo Farah was an Arsenal fan. If anyone was going to do it, whatever. I don’t get that one. But I guess they’re doing it because Mo Farah is London, right? And they’ve picked London… That feels a little bit of odd connect to me, I’m not going to lie. The idea of doing it feels like a no-brainer. I don’t understand why no one’s ever done it before. Not just the football club, right? Any sports organisation. Because it’s just one way that people come together and…

Jo (17:33.069)
Mm.

Jo (17:40.791)
Mm.

Jo (17:50.349)
Yeah.

Ed Abis (17:51.408)
whether you’re in a group of like-minded people, you’re running, playing netball, whatever that is, it brings you together and then other things come off the back of that then. So I think what it will allow to do is that will be the ignition point that potentially I think they’re thinking about how that grows ultimately mini supporters groups in different cities. I know that look, know that like Man City have done marches to games. I know that if St. Pauli who playing Hamburg in Germany have been doing that kind of thing for years.

Jo (17:56.909)
Mm.

Jo (18:00.301)
Yeah.

Jo (18:11.319)
Yeah.

Jo (18:20.151)
Mm-hmm.

Ed Abis (18:21.615)
It’s just different ways of showing your fandom and they’ve decided to manifest it through running.

Jo (18:25.196)
Yeah, yeah, no, I’m convinced you’ve won me over. think this it feels like something that is potentially a springboard into other things. It’d be great to revisit this in a few months and see what’s sprung up off the back of this community building.

Ed Abis (18:30.087)
I’ll sleep tonight.

Ed Abis (18:40.967)
I think it’s absolutely that. It’s an anchor point, right? And I think it’s like in a lot of ways it’s not think about it any more than that, but it’s a simple thing they can do. And the thing is, the good thing about Nike is as well, cause they do have a lot of data around people who do run clubs around the world. And PSG and Nike have done some great stuff down the years. So I can see them doing, if this works, like special ranges on the back of it too, it could be quite clever.

Jo (18:54.601)
Mm-hmm.

Jo (19:05.644)
Yeah, I look forward to Stockport County starting theirs up. That might entice me to join a run club again. Right.

Ed Abis (19:11.536)
Only if you have your weather gear.

Jo (19:15.392)
Okay, next story. One that’s quite close to my heart given that I have a couple of podcasts currently. Apple is introducing video podcasts. So finally, arguably, they’re playing catch up. They’re launching full video on Apple podcasts so you can watch or listen and you can toggle between the two. How inventive.

Ed Abis (19:30.748)
Got there eventually.

Jo (19:40.917)
Now, but the interesting thing that they’re building into Apple video podcasts is that you can dynamically insert video ads. So that’s host red spots. You can keep control of that, which is really interesting. Apple takes nothing from creators or hosts, but they will charge ad networks an impression-based fee. So is this…

What do we think of the chances of Apple catching up with the Spotify’s video podcasts, really the preserve of YouTube to this point? Do we think that they’re really gonna be able to compete with YouTube and Spotify?

Ed Abis (20:17.767)
So the question is, is Apple trying to become the global home of podcasts?

Jo (20:22.062)
I mean, I would say so, yes.

Ed Abis (20:26.789)
I think it’s too late. Like I think that that horse is, and I know it’s Apple, right? And like the horse has bolted to a certain degree on that one. Like the way YouTube are going with this is kind of like, it feels more like a me too, like trying to play catch up because everyone else has done that and innovated with that. So they feel like they’ve now got to do it. I think it’s great what they’re saying there about, look, we’re not going to charge anything to creators or hosts. We’re going to take an impression based fee.

Jo (20:49.729)
Hmm.

Ed Abis (20:51.675)
He’s still coming out of someone’s cut that. yeah, it might not be coming out at the end, but it’s coming out at the beginning. It’s still cash being taken out of the process.

Jo (20:57.1)
I guess if you, yeah, but if you’re saying it’s not coming out of creators, I mean, that’s the big hook, isn’t it? Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and at the end of the day, no matter how favorable they try and paint the terms, at the end of the day, the platform wins, doesn’t it? So.

Ed Abis (21:04.273)
They just won’t see it because it’s come out before, but it’s still coming out.

Ed Abis (21:17.713)
Well, that’s probably their hope. Yeah. But I think what I think what it is doing is if you think about the future of podcasting, which is now just shows, right, because I think more and more I’m hearing that people just not talking about pods or podcasting, just talking about shows. I think it’s clear that video is the future of this. And I think what I think what that audio step has done when it was just audio that’s moved to video is.

It’s been that transition point that’s given lots and lots of people the confidence to go, you know what, if I can do it, I could probably go on camera and do it video too. And some would say that’s what I’m trying to do. It’s made it, I think that transition has made it accessible. And I think more people like Apple saying we’re going to go video too, has just validated that. And again, anyone who’s only making their podcast, putting them out on Apple, like YouTube will be rubbing their hands because that’s more people we can take onto YouTube.

Jo (22:01.582)
Mm.

Jo (22:14.316)
Well, there is that. what, remind me of what Tony said when you interviewed Tony Paster about video and how he perceives video versus audio.

Ed Abis (22:24.447)
I think the way he described it was that some people will consume audio, some people consume video. It gives them an unbelievable opportunity to create different types of content for different audiences in different places. And that’s how they have to see it because there are so many different ways that you can distribute the content now. They just have to make the content so it’s just, is distributable a word? Across lots of different platforms. Now,

Jo (22:30.307)
Yeah.

Jo (22:47.052)
It’s really good, yeah.

Ed Abis (22:51.515)
Tony comes up from a slightly different perspective that he comes from a video production world and his business before becoming a podcast business was a TV production business. So it’s almost like full circle for them. It never felt alien for them to transition into that. So in a lot of ways, it almost gave them their competitive advantage at the point that the tide was turning.

Jo (22:55.382)
Yeah, yeah.

Jo (23:12.534)
which I agree with, putting my skeptical hat back on. When I listen to some podcasts that are created as video podcasts, but I listen to them as audio.

there’s more than a few that forget some people listen as audio. So they’ll have visual elements that don’t translate. And I think that’s a skill. And I do think that there are people that are really lacking that. And so does this mean that actually everything is gonna default to video or is there still a place for audio? I still like audio only. I go and walk the dog at lunchtime. I like audio only.

Ed Abis (23:51.675)
Me too, yeah me too.

Jo (23:52.515)
but it has to make sense and it has to deliver some value. And if there’s clear visual gags or things that are happening that don’t translate, then I’m done with it. So does, mean, is podcasting done really? Is the future just video? Are we all chat show hosts now?

Ed Abis (24:07.716)
No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. One of my favourite podcasts is Smartless with Jason Bateman and a few of his friends. And they actually only do audio. And I would love to watch them on video because they are so hilariously funny. But some of the stuff they do, you know they’re having a little in-joke, but they’ve just chosen that they only want to do it on audio. But they can all, I know they record it, they can see themselves when they do it, but they actually only make it as audio. again, I have spoke to Tony about this because…

Jo (24:14.167)
Yeah.

Jo (24:17.922)
Yeah.

Jo (24:27.341)
Hmm.

Ed Abis (24:35.674)
some of the things they do on some of his shows, see how he shows there, the reality is when you start going deep on some of the historical stuff or the rest is science, a visual explanation is the only thing that will work, but he said himself they have agonized over is this gonna work in an audio world, because audio is still incredibly important. So I think it’s balanced, but some things just work better in audio, some things just work better in video.

Jo (24:58.126)
Mm.

Jo (25:03.118)
Do you think that there’ll be experts in each and that some will just stay audio and video or are we going to get to the stage where actually for the same podcast you have to record two versions?

Ed Abis (25:16.262)
I think like everything that starts out niche everyone’s chasing scale. So there will be people that will stay I’m only gonna do all like I said smart list only do audio There will be people who are probably have been successful enough and it’s not their main thing Which is not for smart less that they can go now We’re just gonna stay order because we like doing audio but I think the vast majority of the realities is you know, follow follow the money They’ll chase the money. So ultimately they’ll go for

Jo (25:20.814)
Mm.

Jo (25:25.837)
Yeah.

Jo (25:36.27)
Hmm.

Jo (25:43.534)
Yeah.

Ed Abis (25:44.684)
omnipresent, omni format distribution, which will have to be video and audio, which means they’ll record it in a video first way.

Jo (25:51.339)
And the ad load on video is so much higher, isn’t it? You can put much more in video.

Ed Abis (25:58.487)
Yeah, you can be way more creative, right? I guess that’s the point with it. yeah. We’re doing well here, Last story. So Publishis, God, I can’t even my words out today. It’s been a long day. Publishis have launched their influential sports unit, which sounds very exciting, on the back of WPP doing something similar a little while ago. I theirs was more of a sport specific practice, but ultimately…

Jo (26:00.751)
Yeah. Okay. Last, last one.

Ed Abis (26:26.662)
Publicity’s group have launched influential sports, new unit combining the influencer creator marketing arm, they’ve been doing for a number of years. Publicity sports, they’ve been doing for a number of years and their data agencies. So they’re bringing it all together. Some would argue, you’re not doing that already. It was all part of the same organisation. It’s designed to connect brands to sports-orientated creators across major leagues, collegiate athletes and emerging sports. The move follows their acquisition, publicist’s acquisition of Influencion in 2024 and buying a sports, some sports agencies.

Jo (26:36.866)
Mm-hmm.

Jo (26:40.511)
you

Ed Abis (26:55.046)
bespoke and adopt. So they’re betting on the fact that 71 % of professional sports fans engage in online communities and 56 interact with creators within fandoms. Is that a thing Joe? Does that really happen?

Jo (27:07.566)
Does this feel over engineered? does to me. What advertising agency combines parts of other parts of the advertising agency and calls it a new name under sports?

Ed Abis (27:12.07)
I mean, look, I guess… Yeah. Yeah.

Advertising agency, how do we more money shocker?

Jo (27:25.806)
Uh, yeah. Um, I’m going to say, do you know, isn’t it interesting? I was listening to, um, the, the grill room podcast earlier, uh, and John Arand and Julia Alexander were on it. don’t think Dylan Byers was in that one. And, and I mean, basically it’s a running theme now that, you know, every streamer, uh, is, has got a sports strategy. They’re all looking, you know, YouTube included. They’ve got, um, Sunday ticket. They’ve got, you know, you’ve got.

all of these streamers, Amazon, tech companies, all looking for a sports play. Sports is, know, the genre du jour seems that it’s working in advertising agencies as well as streamers. So yeah, I mean, are they gonna, are they just cashing in? We’ve talked about the NFL and the NBA. We’ve got the World Cup coming up. It’s gonna be the biggest creator World Cup. Are they just cashing in?

Ed Abis (28:18.006)
they’re absolutely cashing in and launching this now because we’ve got the World Cup coming up and you watch, there’ll be creators doing all manner of stuff with brands all over it for the World Cup. my only hope and prayer is that all of this doesn’t become so commercial that it just kills the whole model before it even gets off the ground. Because I think, look, I love the concept of working with creators, connecting…

Jo (28:28.568)
lost it will be.

Jo (28:37.336)
Yeah.

Ed Abis (28:47.782)
let’s call them specialist creators who love their sport to give them access to their sport. So then the sport themselves reaches the audience that they don’t do themselves and the creator gets access to a sport they truly, truly love. So they come together and it becomes a value exchange, right? And ultimately the winner in all of that should be then the fan that they get to experience something that they could never could have experienced before because creators will tell a story about the sport they love in a way that a sport exec never will. And I’m saying this from a perspective of

Jo (28:57.389)
Mm-hmm.

Ed Abis (29:17.274)
When I worked in a rights hold in a sport, I would often just go and eat my lunch, sit in the stands and just almost take joy from the majesty of Turf Moor. Now I would say that. And think to myself, if only I could find a way that other people could experience this and that 20 odd years ago there was no way of doing it. Now…

Jo (29:30.014)
You

Jo (29:37.035)
Ed Abis (29:39.258)
There are ways and means of being able to do this and we are seeing lots and lots of people who are finding ways of combining real life experiences with digital experiences. And I think there are commercial opportunities with it too.

Jo (29:48.697)
I get that. And you know what, I how you just described it because what you described was genuine and authentic. Here’s where I get a little bit skeptical again. You’ve got creators, you’ve got publicists who are gonna line up creators and they’re gonna say, hey brands, we’ve got creators for you. At what point do…

the creators and the sport not really match. We’re back in influencer Instagram ad territory days where it’s not genuine. It’s just, yeah, I’ll turn up for that check and I’ll go and claim that I’m a fan of volleyball or whatever. That then will lead to this.

Create a fatigue around sports because fans will be like god. It’s him again You know, I don’t believe that he’s as genuine a fan or they’ll get shown up as not knowing as much as the fans do and then it will be Classed as kind of selling out. So is this race to embrace create creators? Very very quickly gonna get tired

Ed Abis (30:52.472)
It scares me. I’m not going to lie because you and I have talked about this for a good while now and we want this to be done. What creators do is very much with their audience is built on trust. you think about back in the over a long period of time, it used to be that the news readers were the people that people trusted to be able to deliver them the news and obviously without going into detail of what’s happened to certain news readers. That’s long gone, right?

Jo (31:07.884)
Yeah, and over a long period of time.

Jo (31:16.92)
Mm.

Ed Abis (31:21.37)
These creators have ultimately become the modern day pipers of their particular fan base as it were and they are trusted to deliver their opinion without I guess commercial, not input because people understand they’ve to make money right but they’re not going to be swayed by the cash I guess. It’s fine to take the cash

Jo (31:31.415)
Yeah, yeah!

Jo (31:47.17)
Yeah, and they, yeah.

Ed Abis (31:49.466)
Just don’t change your opinion because of the cash.

Jo (31:52.078)
That’s it, yeah, and that’s the difference. But there will be inevitably those that will take the cash and they will let the commercial drive the bus. And the potential is that they undermine those creators who aren’t willing to sacrifice their relationship with their audience for a big check. So, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed Abis (32:10.415)
There’s always someone that will say yes when plenty say no, and that is the problem.

Jo (32:15.286)
which I think, but then that does risk undermining the whole rush for creative strategy that we’ve got in sports at the minute. I just, yeah, I hope that we get to the stage where actually…

leagues or even agencies like publicists realize that you can’t just throw a load of random creators into sport and align them with brands and think it’s it will the perception to the audience it will come across we’ve said this before particularly when you look at Gen Z and Gen A who are the most media literate generation ever they can smell this a mile off they can see through it their their radar it’s finally changed exactly so the risk

Ed Abis (32:52.348)
yeah, my daughter looks at stuff and goes like, yeah, fake.

Jo (32:58.318)
The risk is that when you get to league level or you get to big advertising agency level, they don’t take any notice of that. They’re too busy waiting for their commission check. So they’re just going to throw a load of creators at this. And ultimately, who suffers again? It’s the fan who I roll at ex-creator showing up again, and they don’t really believe that they’re a fan. then, know, I think that’s an apt place to wrap up.

We’re at 33 minutes. We’re nearly one of these days. We’ll get it in under 30, but five stories, five minutes. Good chat. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Attention Shift podcast. And if you want to submit any stories, we’d love to hear from you. You can like and subscribe, send us any ideas for questions or stories, or you can tell Ed how shit he is. Or amazing.

Ed Abis (33:27.333)
So yeah, we’re going to try.

Jo (33:50.741)
or famous footballers you’ve met on a plane. You can reach us at helloattentionshift.media. I didn’t mean that Ed, you know I love you to bits. See you next week.

Ed Abis (34:03.494)
Bye!