Summary

• FIRST interview since Goalhanger revealed their EXCLUSIVE Netflix partnership for the 2026 World Cup — and how The Rest Is Football will go global.
• How a hobby-style WWII podcast became a 600M+ podcast empire.
• The moment Tony realised video would overtake audio — and podcasts would evolve into full sports shows.
• The inside story behind Goalhanger’s “Rest Is…” format and the formula that changed UK podcasting.
• What the Netflix deal means for the future of sports media, creator-led broadcasting, and owning your IP.

Transcription

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Welcome to The Attention Shift, a podcast where sports media gets debated like a VAR decision.

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Passionately, chaotically, and with none of us fully agreeing on the outcome, right?

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Hello and welcome to a very special edition of The Attention Shift podcast.

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Today I’ve got a very special guest, longtime friend, sometime collaborator,

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hot on the heels of a major announcement that’s happened in the last few days.

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I’ve got the co-founder of Goalhanger, Tony Paster. Welcome, Tony.

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Thanks Ed, thanks for having me.

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Just to give some context about Goalhanger.

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So Goalhanger now is the UK’s largest independent podcast company.

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2024, 400 million plus downloads.

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This year you’re looking with the introduction of YouTube as well

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to get past 6, 7, 5, 700 million downloads.

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Huge podcast company now, more than that.

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I know you’ve been through a rebrand and we’re going to come on to that now

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and in terms of how you see yourselves.

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But today we’re going to talk about the journey that Goalhanger’s been on,

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what’s happening this summer, which we’ll come on to close to the end,

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and how just the way of the world of media and content is changing.

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So let’s go right back to the beginning then, right?

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2014 Goalhanger.

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You found a Goalhanger with Gary Lineker back then.

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Football was very much in the DNA from the start, wasn’t it?

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Yes, I left ITV Sports where I had been the controller of the production department.

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So I’d run the sports production department for the previous four years.

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I’d been at ITV for 13 years working on sports productions,

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so World Cups, Rugby World Cups, European Championships, a lot of big night boxing.

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I even produced the boat race for five years.

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So I’d had a very varied career but pretty much all in sports until that point.

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I set up Goalhanger with Gary

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and the idea was to largely produce documentaries usually with big names,

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stars like Anthony Joshua, Wayne Rooney, Kevin Peterson.

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And we trundled along for four or five years very merrily and happily

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making probably 10 or 12 docs a year.

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And then in 2019 we decided to experiment with podcasting and the whole world changed.

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Yeah, I remember us talking about this as well,

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because obviously the world of commissioning and production,

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no one quite knew what was going on and the idea of what do we do now

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became a bit of an ignition point for you guys, right?

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Yeah, we’d always been a very traditional media company

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in the sense that we worked for commissioners and the model in the UK is pretty well known.

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You have an idea, you persuade hopefully a commissioner at one of the broadcasters.

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We worked for NBC, BBC, ITV Channel 4, etc.

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You’d persuade them of the merits of your idea.

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They would give you some budget and you would try and retain

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maybe a 10% margin on that.

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And there would be the potential of upside if you could sell the show internationally.

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So, you know, our Anthony Joshua film, I think we sold to 16 countries

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and that effectively was how you could make money out of high-end production.

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So, okay, April 2019 then.

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So you’ve obviously been doing all of that work and yes, it’s been successful.

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Like you say, tight margins, difficult to, I guess, to really scale

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when you’ve not got the freedom to do the kind of things necessarily that you want

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because you’d be holding a lot of ways to commissioners.

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So, April 2019 you launched We Have Ways of Making You Talk with Al Murray and James Holland

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and this was the podcast that started it all.

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So, you know, go back to that.

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Who thinks to do a Second World War podcast?

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So, that’s on me that because what happened was I went into Waterstones

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near to Clapham Junction to buy a book.

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My dad, myself, very keen history buffs of the Second World War,

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not least because his father was a soldier in Malta, married a local girl

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and that was our kind of family origin story, really interested in the story.

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I went to buy a book.

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I went into Waterstones and four of the top 10 books in the history section

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were about the Second World War.

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So, you know, Max Hastings, Anthony Beaver and James Holland

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dominating these history charts.

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I was a big podcast consumer.

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I walked back out of the shop and I thought, you know,

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I’m going to download a podcast about the Second World War

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telling me the stories of the Second World War and there wasn’t one.

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So, 40% of the books on sale in Waterstones history section

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were about the Second World War and there wasn’t a podcast.

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So, I contacted James Holland.

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I said, this is what I want to do.

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Who do you have all the best conversations with?

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And he said, you’re not going to believe it.

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It’s the comedian Al Murray and the podcast was born on the 2nd of April 2019.

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I guess for most people, they probably wouldn’t expect

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that Al Murray would also be the historian that he is too, right?

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He’s ultimately become that now, I think.

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He was always fascinated by the subject and had studied history at Oxford.

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He’s a bright, bright fellow, Al, and really into his subject.

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He’s got a very personal story as well, a remarkable personal story.

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His grandfather was killed at Dunkirk

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trying to protect the British Expeditionary Forces.

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They left the beaches.

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His grandfather was killed.

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His mother was already alive in his grandmother’s stomach.

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She wasn’t born yet, but she was a daughter of a soldier who didn’t come back.

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And so, Al’s been fascinated by the story, as you can understand, ever since.

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And he and James had brilliant conversations.

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And here we are, six and a half years later,

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having done 970 episodes and still going strong.

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So I guess, in a sense, COVID hitting in 2020,

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after you’ve had this idea of doing this,

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what happened to We Have Ways?

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And in a lot of ways, has that almost taken you on the journey

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that you’ve gone on as a business now?

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Totally. I mean, what happened was the podcast was downloaded

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4,000 times in week one.

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And week one, very much a hobby at that stage.

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You know, never going to have any commercial value

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if it retains that kind of scale.

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And then it slowly grew,

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and we discovered that its audience loved it.

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We’re passionate about it.

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We went from one episode a week to two.

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And then suddenly, lockdown came a year later,

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and we’d grown the audience quite substantially.

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But then lockdown, as people were unable to get fresh content,

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they wanted the show more and more.

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We figured out how to do it remotely.

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We didn’t need to have the lads together anymore.

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And the consequence of that was we could produce…

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Al was stuck at home, couldn’t go on tour doing The Pub Landlord.

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So we produced the show every day during lockdown.

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And by the time we came out of lockdown,

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we were being downloaded 300,000 times a week,

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and we had a very viable podcast

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that could justify itself in business terms.

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I remember you telling me about it when it first happened as well,

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and then, obviously, we went on that journey of watching it

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and just watching things like Al building models,

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tanks, usually tanks.

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Yeah. I mean, what I think it tells us is that

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niche works.

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If you’ve got a fandom for something,

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it doesn’t have to be huge if they’re really engaged.

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And what we discovered there was that this audience

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was underserved in modern media.

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It was really well served in traditional media, in books.

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It wasn’t well served in podcasting, certainly.

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And so we served them, and they adored it.

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And the next thing you know, they were demanding more content.

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We built out a membership club.

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That membership club now has 8,500 people.

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We provide them with bonus content.

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We do a live festival every year.

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We do live streams on YouTube,

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and we’ve built out a whole infrastructure around it.

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And if I remember rightly as well,

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that membership and a lot of what, though,

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you realize that lots of groups around the country

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were creating their own meetups physically,

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and actually the whole…

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They just wanted something to bond over,

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and I think that probably gave you the sense

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of actually there’s more to it than this.

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Yeah, totally.

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I mean, one of the things that we discovered was that

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the audience wanted to spend time with each other.

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It was a community as much as it was an audience.

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They weren’t individuals sat separately on their own…

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Well, they were,

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but they wanted ways to speak to each other,

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so they would do it through Discord

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or through the chat on the sidebar of the live YouTube shows.

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And then they started meeting up,

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and we now have 16 regional clubs,

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you know, Scotland, Lancashire, Dorset.

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The Dorsets meet on a regular basis.

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By the way, all we do is facilitate it

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in the sense that we hook the people up together.

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We don’t… It’s theirs.

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They run it themselves.

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It’s not a commercial venture.

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It’s just something that, you know,

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is a fabulous community element of the show.

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I think the beauty of that as well,

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because it’s easier for people to start saying,

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oh, everything’s digital now.

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The world’s digital.

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But the reality is the digital there

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is then driving the physical,

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because people still want connection in real life,

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you know, IRL, as I discovered the acronym.

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And then the best example of this is that

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at the end of COVID,

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we decided to have a festival

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to just bring everybody together

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in a sense of relief and a party

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and have a few beers and Alan James

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and a few speakers would, you know, give talks.

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900 people attended.

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That’s five years ago.

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And this year’s We Have Ways Festival,

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FOMF, as we called it,

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was attended by 5,000 people.

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So, you know, it’s grown enormously.

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I know you’ve been trying to get me there for years

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and I finally pulled my finger out this year

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and went with the family.

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And it was fascinating.

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I’m a teenage daughter, very much into history.

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She found it fascinating,

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spending time with re-enactors,

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you know, seeing and hearing the stories.

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And then every now and then you’ve got

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Alan Murray doing cabaret,

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which is like, I think, like,

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an experience like I’ve never had before.

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And it was amazing to be around that,

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but everyone just so friendly.

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The food and drink was great, too.

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It just felt like a great experience.

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And already we’re like, right,

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we’re coming next year,

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as I’ve already pestered you with.

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So you can see how that’s developed.

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So I guess, so at this point, right,

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you’re starting to realise that

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there’s a model here probably

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that’s more than just a World War II podcast,

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that there are other niche areas

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that you can potentially get into.

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So how would you then have the idea then

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of the next stage, like the rest is stage?

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Is there something before that?

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So one of my colleagues, Jack Davenport,

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who is co-founder of the podcast business

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that we now run together,

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came up to me one day and he said,

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what you’ve done with We Have Ways

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is really remarkable,

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building out this community from a niche subject.

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He said, but you’re only covering six years of history.

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What happens if we do the whole lot?

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I said, yeah, you’re probably right.

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And so we approached Tom Holland

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and later Dominic Sandbrook

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and started a podcast called The Rest Is History,

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which is now the biggest history podcast in the world,

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18 million downloads a month.

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And as you will find out in the next 24 hours,

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Ed is gonna be named by Apple

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as the number one podcast on the planet,

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the first ever non-American podcast

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to be named number one podcast according to Apple.

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So that’s embargoed till tomorrow.

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But by the time this goes out,

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hopefully that’ll be news.

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And I think that, like, I find that,

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I find that fascinating that in a world

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where everything’s supposed to be about short form

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and everything’s supposed to be about the quick hit,

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that history and what you do, which is long form,

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is now the biggest podcast on the planet.

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So it’s interesting, this,

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because people keep telling me that younger generations

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are only interested in short form

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and people describe them in unpleasant terms

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as the TikTok generation.

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But actually, we’re finding the complete opposite.

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00:11:33.140 –> 00:11:34.820
Basically, I think there’s been a complete failure

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00:11:34.820 –> 00:11:36.740
to understand what younger audiences want.

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00:11:37.400 –> 00:11:41.380
So we put out six-part, eight-part, 10-part series

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on a single subject, you know,

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the start of the First World War,

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the French Revolution,

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00:11:48.000 –> 00:11:49.920
and what we find is that, in fact,

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these audiences want it in granular detail.

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But what they do want is they want brilliant storytelling.

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They want it really engaging, funny.

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They want character-driven.

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They want narrative.

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So the average age of a listener

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to the rest of his history is 33.

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Half the audience is under 34.

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So what does that tell you?

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It tells you that it’s a myth that older audiences

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are the only people who are interested in history,

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for example.

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Younger audiences are absolutely loving it.

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Ultimately, storytelling, right?

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I always term this like

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younger people have not got short attention spans.

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They just don’t tolerate shit content.

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They’ve got a much wider choice

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00:12:27.160 –> 00:12:28.060
than when we were growing up.

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And whenever people tell me that

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young audiences don’t have attention spans,

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I say, well, why do they watch

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box sets of Stranger Things all in one go?

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00:12:37.240 –> 00:12:38.080
Yeah, absolutely.

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00:12:39.000 –> 00:12:41.000
So at this point, then, rest of history,

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00:12:41.140 –> 00:12:43.400
the rest of his brand is starting to emerge.

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You’ve seen what’s happened with the rest of his history.

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00:12:45.960 –> 00:12:47.440
Then you’ve got the rest of his politics,

290
00:12:47.520 –> 00:12:49.400
rest of entertainment, and then most recently,

291
00:12:49.720 –> 00:12:52.000
the rest of his science, which is my new favourite podcast.

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00:12:52.980 –> 00:12:54.940
So you’ve clearly found something special there.

293
00:12:56.220 –> 00:12:57.260
So next stage,

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00:12:57.720 –> 00:12:59.840
you’ve got obviously the rest of his politics, right?

295
00:13:00.640 –> 00:13:01.800
And Alistair Campbell, who we both know,

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00:13:01.800 –> 00:13:04.040
who’s also a Burnley fan, and again, we’re recording this video.

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00:13:04.140 –> 00:13:05.320
We’re about to go to Turf Moor,

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00:13:05.440 –> 00:13:07.080
so it’s actually quite timely.

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00:13:08.060 –> 00:13:09.700
How does that come about then?

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00:13:09.740 –> 00:13:11.600
And then ultimately, you start to see this replicate.

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00:13:11.920 –> 00:13:13.540
So politics came about because

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00:13:13.540 –> 00:13:15.820
every time we did history

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00:13:15.820 –> 00:13:17.680
series or shows on the rest of his history

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00:13:17.680 –> 00:13:19.820
that had a political aspect to them,

305
00:13:20.240 –> 00:13:21.700
the story of Watergate,

306
00:13:22.580 –> 00:13:23.460
the Falklands War,

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00:13:23.520 –> 00:13:26.160
things where you’d be looking at

308
00:13:26.160 –> 00:13:27.340
Thatcher or Nixon.

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00:13:27.540 –> 00:13:29.560
When there was a really interesting political aspect

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00:13:29.560 –> 00:13:32.320
to these history stories, they did really, really well.

311
00:13:32.700 –> 00:13:33.960
And so we thought, actually,

312
00:13:34.320 –> 00:13:35.800
it’s only a short step

313
00:13:35.800 –> 00:13:37.460
sideways from history to

314
00:13:37.460 –> 00:13:39.220
the history of politics to politics.

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00:13:40.000 –> 00:13:42.400
And so I approached Alistair

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00:13:42.400 –> 00:13:43.760
and said, this is what I want to do.

317
00:13:43.760 –> 00:13:44.300
And he said to me,

318
00:13:44.800 –> 00:13:47.260
the podcasting, it doesn’t really work, does it?

319
00:13:47.260 –> 00:13:48.700
I’ve done one with my daughter, Grace.

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00:13:49.100 –> 00:13:51.780
It was fun, but it felt more like

321
00:13:51.780 –> 00:13:53.540
more of a hobby perhaps than

322
00:13:53.540 –> 00:13:55.600
a business venture, than a media business venture.

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00:13:55.660 –> 00:13:57.560
And I said, well, you’re going to have to trust us on that one.

324
00:13:57.560 –> 00:13:59.200
We’ve got a history podcast.

325
00:13:59.220 –> 00:14:01.540
In fact, we’ve got two history podcasts that are doing extremely well.

326
00:14:02.020 –> 00:14:03.180
So he

327
00:14:04.300 –> 00:14:05.480
suggested Rory Stewart.

328
00:14:06.060 –> 00:14:07.580
I said to him, we need

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00:14:07.580 –> 00:14:09.580
a Tory. We need a Tory you can have really

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00:14:09.580 –> 00:14:10.640
good conversations with.

331
00:14:11.480 –> 00:14:13.120
And he came up with Rory.

332
00:14:13.500 –> 00:14:15.140
And it’s worked incredibly well.

333
00:14:15.620 –> 00:14:17.340
So, yeah, we went from politics.

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00:14:17.540 –> 00:14:19.040
Then we added Politics US. We added

335
00:14:19.040 –> 00:14:21.620
The Rest is Money, which is

336
00:14:21.620 –> 00:14:23.740
more of an economics and business

337
00:14:23.740 –> 00:14:25.180
podcast. And we’ve added

338
00:14:25.180 –> 00:14:27.300
Entertainment. We’ve added Classified, which is

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00:14:27.300 –> 00:14:29.140
about spying and, as you say, recently

340
00:14:29.140 –> 00:14:31.500
science. And then

341
00:14:31.500 –> 00:14:33.160
August 2023, football.

342
00:14:34.280 –> 00:14:35.340
Obviously, Gary’s

343
00:14:35.340 –> 00:14:37.640
also the founder of the business, right? So

344
00:14:37.640 –> 00:14:39.180
it seemed like an obvious pivot, really.

345
00:14:39.320 –> 00:14:41.040
And I guess, anyway,

346
00:14:41.120 –> 00:14:43.120
you’d not done it soon, or was it just because of what Gary

347
00:14:43.120 –> 00:14:45.120
was doing in his day job, in a sense?

348
00:14:45.160 –> 00:14:47.260
In a way, we’d done so much sport

349
00:14:47.260 –> 00:14:49.480
for so long. And I thought, I really

350
00:14:49.480 –> 00:14:51.500
really wanted to prove that we could

351
00:14:51.500 –> 00:14:53.180
make shows in different

352
00:14:53.180 –> 00:14:55.180
genres and that we weren’t just going to rely

353
00:14:55.180 –> 00:14:57.280
on, you know, a genre

354
00:14:57.280 –> 00:14:59.200
that we’d made a living out of for so long.

355
00:14:59.280 –> 00:15:01.260
I wanted to prove a point, really, a little bit.

356
00:15:01.600 –> 00:15:03.280
And then, you know, it got to a point. I think we

357
00:15:03.280 –> 00:15:05.140
were in Qatar for the World Cup.

358
00:15:06.180 –> 00:15:07.320
I was out there working

359
00:15:07.320 –> 00:15:09.180
and Gary was out there with Alan and Micah

360
00:15:09.180 –> 00:15:11.160
and they were asking him about the success

361
00:15:11.160 –> 00:15:13.140
of the podcast business. And he said,

362
00:15:13.160 –> 00:15:15.280
listen, we should do one together. And they went, absolutely.

363
00:15:15.560 –> 00:15:16.760
And that’s where it was born.

364
00:15:17.080 –> 00:15:19.240
I think the reason it’s become

365
00:15:19.240 –> 00:15:21.220
so popular and

366
00:15:21.220 –> 00:15:23.180
zeitgeist-y is because

367
00:15:23.180 –> 00:15:24.980
we said to them at the time,

368
00:15:25.680 –> 00:15:27.360
we don’t want this to feel like

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00:15:27.360 –> 00:15:29.000
an orthodox television show.

370
00:15:29.140 –> 00:15:30.720
It shouldn’t feel like Match of the Day.

371
00:15:31.000 –> 00:15:33.520
It should feel like the conversation

372
00:15:33.520 –> 00:15:35.360
in the green room before

373
00:15:35.360 –> 00:15:36.920
you go on air for Match of the Day,

374
00:15:37.280 –> 00:15:39.100
the bit where you feel less constrained

375
00:15:39.100 –> 00:15:41.340
by the formalities of the traditional format

376
00:15:41.340 –> 00:15:43.400
and where you can say, you’re not going to believe this.

377
00:15:43.580 –> 00:15:45.380
It looks like X is going to sack Y.

378
00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:47.160
I can’t believe he missed that.

379
00:15:47.280 –> 00:15:49.200
You know, where you can actually, and actually,

380
00:15:49.200 –> 00:15:51.660
the lads wear their parts on their sleeves.

381
00:15:52.260 –> 00:15:54.200
Alan’s very much a Newcastle fan

382
00:15:54.200 –> 00:15:55.340
in it, admits he

383
00:15:55.340 –> 00:15:56.840
hates Sunderland. You know, that’s cool.

384
00:15:57.280 –> 00:15:59.000
And I think the audience really likes that.

385
00:15:59.160 –> 00:16:00.540
Absolutely. I think you see

386
00:16:01.400 –> 00:16:02.860
a different side to Alan, right?

387
00:16:02.940 –> 00:16:05.180
Because obviously, he clearly loves to swear

388
00:16:05.180 –> 00:16:07.020
as he does on a regular basis.

389
00:16:07.520 –> 00:16:09.540
But I do feel like

390
00:16:09.540 –> 00:16:11.360
knowing him, you get a sense

391
00:16:11.360 –> 00:16:12.900
of what it would be like if you were spending time with him.

392
00:16:13.700 –> 00:16:14.860
I mean, Micah’s Micah, right?

393
00:16:14.860 –> 00:16:16.240
I think he’s the same wherever he is.

394
00:16:16.240 –> 00:16:18.180
Yeah, I mean, it’s been interesting

395
00:16:18.180 –> 00:16:20.160
this, because first of all, I’ll tell you what I think it’s done.

396
00:16:20.280 –> 00:16:22.360
I think it’s shown the public

397
00:16:22.360 –> 00:16:23.640
who Alan really is.

398
00:16:24.540 –> 00:16:26.500
Because Alan’s a brilliant, funny,

399
00:16:27.260 –> 00:16:28.320
charismatic, top man

400
00:16:28.320 –> 00:16:29.880
and everybody really likes working with him.

401
00:16:30.180 –> 00:16:32.380
He’s a great company. I mean, I’m in a fantastic

402
00:16:32.380 –> 00:16:34.360
WhatsApp group with all the boys.

403
00:16:36.200 –> 00:16:36.920
Throughout Saturday

404
00:16:36.920 –> 00:16:38.360
and in the evening when football’s

405
00:16:38.360 –> 00:16:40.160
being played, they’re all watching it all the time.

406
00:16:40.380 –> 00:16:42.380
They’re not doing it for a job, they’re doing it because they love it

407
00:16:42.380 –> 00:16:44.320
and they’re taking the Micah out of each other and it’s

408
00:16:44.320 –> 00:16:46.940
brilliant fun. And you get a real sense of their friendship.

409
00:16:47.300 –> 00:16:48.860
And I think for Micah, what it’s done is

410
00:16:48.860 –> 00:16:50.500
it’s given him so much

411
00:16:51.280 –> 00:16:52.380
airtime compared with

412
00:16:52.380 –> 00:16:54.360
the three minutes he probably gets on match of the day

413
00:16:54.360 –> 00:16:56.700
post-match. I think it’s shown

414
00:16:56.700 –> 00:16:58.360
his serious side, although

415
00:16:58.360 –> 00:17:00.600
he’s great fun, that he’s a brilliant analyst.

416
00:17:00.680 –> 00:17:02.460
He understands the modern footballer

417
00:17:02.460 –> 00:17:04.359
and that he can

418
00:17:04.359 –> 00:17:06.660
hold his own. He could be a coach at a very

419
00:17:06.660 –> 00:17:08.700
high level, I think, Micah, because he really

420
00:17:08.700 –> 00:17:10.599
understands the game and the podcast

421
00:17:10.599 –> 00:17:11.380
has shown that.

422
00:17:12.560 –> 00:17:13.940
So, Euro 2024

423
00:17:14.579 –> 00:17:15.380
happens and then

424
00:17:15.380 –> 00:17:17.440
something extraordinary happens and it really

425
00:17:17.440 –> 00:17:19.500
blows up right. And I think you did

426
00:17:19.500 –> 00:17:21.400
what, close to 20 million downloads and streams

427
00:17:21.400 –> 00:17:22.480
across the tournament.

428
00:17:23.300 –> 00:17:25.640
And the most interesting thing about it was it was the first

429
00:17:25.640 –> 00:17:27.319
time that the

430
00:17:27.319 –> 00:17:29.420
video audience was bigger than the

431
00:17:29.420 –> 00:17:31.360
audio audience. That’s the first time that had happened.

432
00:17:31.500 –> 00:17:33.620
It was only about a little bit, but it was a really significant

433
00:17:33.620 –> 00:17:35.420
moment. We’ve talked

434
00:17:35.420 –> 00:17:37.340
about this a lot, and Manny who sat here with us as well,

435
00:17:37.380 –> 00:17:39.420
he’s obviously been part of this conversation, where we talked

436
00:17:39.420 –> 00:17:41.820
about a lot, didn’t we, about will one thing

437
00:17:41.820 –> 00:17:43.500
cannibalise the other? And no one

438
00:17:43.500 –> 00:17:45.500
could really answer the question. And it was only when

439
00:17:45.500 –> 00:17:47.400
you did it, when you were like, actually no, like one thing

440
00:17:47.400 –> 00:17:49.440
is fuelling the other. Well, it was very interesting.

441
00:17:50.600 –> 00:17:51.420
So, I went

442
00:17:51.420 –> 00:17:53.620
to Cannes for the Lion

443
00:17:53.980 –> 00:17:55.500
Festival, where you get

444
00:17:55.500 –> 00:17:57.540
to basically meet CMOs of every

445
00:17:57.540 –> 00:17:59.460
business in the world. I think that’s the one where you and the Spotify thing

446
00:17:59.460 –> 00:18:00.720
and I wasn’t. Yeah, that could be.

447
00:18:01.540 –> 00:18:03.380
Although I’m sure I ended up in a bar drinking

448
00:18:03.380 –> 00:18:05.500
Guinness with you that night. But anyway, I

449
00:18:05.500 –> 00:18:07.380
went to see Alex Cooper

450
00:18:07.380 –> 00:18:09.040
who presents Call Her Daddy,

451
00:18:09.640 –> 00:18:11.120
fantastic American podcaster.

452
00:18:11.560 –> 00:18:13.540
And she said on stage, she said

453
00:18:13.540 –> 00:18:15.380
when I watch a podcast, and it was

454
00:18:15.380 –> 00:18:17.380
the first time I’d ever heard anybody

455
00:18:17.380 –> 00:18:19.520
refer to a podcast as a viewing experience,

456
00:18:19.920 –> 00:18:21.500
not a listening experience.

457
00:18:22.580 –> 00:18:23.460
And I

458
00:18:23.460 –> 00:18:25.380
came home from that and said, we’re

459
00:18:25.380 –> 00:18:27.440
just about to launch the rest of this football, so we’ve got to think

460
00:18:27.440 –> 00:18:29.440
about this as a video product as well

461
00:18:29.440 –> 00:18:31.400
as an audio one. And

462
00:18:31.400 –> 00:18:33.300
we launched it on audio

463
00:18:33.300 –> 00:18:35.280
first, because we were super nervous

464
00:18:35.280 –> 00:18:36.880
about cannibalizing the audience.

465
00:18:38.000 –> 00:18:39.300
And then three weeks later, we launched

466
00:18:39.300 –> 00:18:41.380
it on video, on YouTube

467
00:18:41.380 –> 00:18:43.300
at the time, and it had

468
00:18:43.300 –> 00:18:45.300
no effect on the audio audience at all. What

469
00:18:45.300 –> 00:18:47.280
we discovered was that the video audience was completely

470
00:18:48.440 –> 00:18:48.920
additional

471
00:18:48.920 –> 00:18:51.160
to the audio audience. And now

472
00:18:51.160 –> 00:18:53.420
we’ve just arrived at an

473
00:18:53.420 –> 00:18:55.340
extraordinary point. We launched the rest of Science

474
00:18:55.340 –> 00:18:57.360
two weeks ago, and

475
00:18:57.360 –> 00:18:59.420
three times as many people are

476
00:18:59.420 –> 00:19:00.960
watching it as listening to it.

477
00:19:01.200 –> 00:19:03.520
That’s on Spotify video, and that’s on

478
00:19:03.520 –> 00:19:05.880
YouTube. I’m not even talking about short form

479
00:19:05.880 –> 00:19:07.660
across all the social media

480
00:19:07.660 –> 00:19:09.560
sites, but it has become

481
00:19:09.560 –> 00:19:11.600
a video first product to the point where

482
00:19:11.600 –> 00:19:13.120
it’s three to one.

483
00:19:13.440 –> 00:19:15.800
It was interesting, because I was listening to one of the episodes the other day, one about

484
00:19:15.800 –> 00:19:17.420
space and the message that was sent to space.

485
00:19:17.720 –> 00:19:19.580
And I was on the train and I found myself having to flip

486
00:19:19.580 –> 00:19:21.340
to the video, because I felt like I was missing out

487
00:19:21.340 –> 00:19:23.060
everything they were explaining visually.

488
00:19:23.880 –> 00:19:25.260
And the audio just wasn’t doing it justice.

489
00:19:25.420 –> 00:19:27.600
So we have to be super careful with that. And I think

490
00:19:27.600 –> 00:19:29.700
that episode in particular strayed

491
00:19:29.700 –> 00:19:31.140
very close to the edge

492
00:19:31.140 –> 00:19:33.500
of where it was

493
00:19:34.760 –> 00:19:35.240
not

494
00:19:35.240 –> 00:19:36.940
audio friendly enough.

495
00:19:37.240 –> 00:19:38.400
It’s actually a really good thing.

496
00:19:38.400 –> 00:19:41.400
I didn’t see it as a problem. It actually made me want to see the video.

497
00:19:41.800 –> 00:19:43.160
I think it teeters

498
00:19:43.160 –> 00:19:45.240
on the edge of being a problem, because we want

499
00:19:45.240 –> 00:19:47.360
it to be totally accessible

500
00:19:47.360 –> 00:19:49.360
with you. We want to be agnostic,

501
00:19:49.560 –> 00:19:51.120
right? Watch, listen,

502
00:19:51.260 –> 00:19:53.580
do whatever you like on any platform you like.

503
00:19:54.680 –> 00:19:55.240
And that

504
00:19:55.240 –> 00:19:57.220
I thought was an interesting point, because they were literally

505
00:19:57.220 –> 00:19:59.360
pointing out things on a

506
00:19:59.360 –> 00:20:01.060
poster. Yeah, this is it. And I was like,

507
00:20:01.080 –> 00:20:02.340
I’ve really got to flip this now.

508
00:20:03.220 –> 00:20:05.420
I feel now with The Rest is Football, I have to

509
00:20:05.420 –> 00:20:07.420
watch it. I have to watch it because I want to see

510
00:20:07.420 –> 00:20:09.380
the guys. I want to see their reactions.

511
00:20:09.400 –> 00:20:11.380
I want to see the fun that they’re having.

512
00:20:12.960 –> 00:20:13.580
But it’s

513
00:20:13.580 –> 00:20:15.180
perfectly fine to listen to it too.

514
00:20:15.560 –> 00:20:17.360
I felt The Rest is Science is like the first one

515
00:20:17.360 –> 00:20:19.140
we’ve had that it’s definitely

516
00:20:19.600 –> 00:20:21.280
it’s something you really do want to watch.

517
00:20:21.320 –> 00:20:21.940
Yeah, totally.

518
00:20:23.500 –> 00:20:25.480
What I like about it as well is, and I’ve

519
00:20:25.480 –> 00:20:27.260
mentioned this to you before, and I’m sure you’ve seen it with

520
00:20:27.260 –> 00:20:30.820
your own children as well, the fact that

521
00:20:30.820 –> 00:20:31.620
The Rest is History

522
00:20:31.620 –> 00:20:33.360
and they’re now

523
00:20:33.360 –> 00:20:35.280
on reading lists

524
00:20:35.280 –> 00:20:37.220
in schools and, you know,

525
00:20:37.220 –> 00:20:39.240
went to an open day recently at one of my

526
00:20:39.240 –> 00:20:41.480
daughter’s schools and they put it up on screen and I’m sort of sad.

527
00:20:41.540 –> 00:20:43.000
I go, yeah, The Rest is…

528
00:20:43.560 –> 00:20:45.720
I think it has transcended.

529
00:20:45.800 –> 00:20:47.220
Like I said, it’s

530
00:20:47.220 –> 00:20:49.120
not podcast anymore. I don’t

531
00:20:49.120 –> 00:20:51.400
want to sound holy

532
00:20:51.400 –> 00:20:53.480
now, but I think The Rest is History

533
00:20:53.480 –> 00:20:55.400
has done something magnificent for history in this

534
00:20:55.400 –> 00:20:57.460
country and indeed in the US now because

535
00:20:57.460 –> 00:20:59.480
it’s as big in the US as it is in the UK

536
00:21:00.040 –> 00:21:01.220
and indeed Australia.

537
00:21:01.460 –> 00:21:03.420
But I think it’s done something fantastic

538
00:21:03.420 –> 00:21:05.540
for history. I think it’s reignited a passion

539
00:21:05.540 –> 00:21:07.360
for history that people perhaps

540
00:21:07.360 –> 00:21:09.620
have forgotten. You know, maybe they

541
00:21:09.620 –> 00:21:11.320
haven’t really studied

542
00:21:11.320 –> 00:21:13.280
history or thought about history or read history

543
00:21:13.280 –> 00:21:15.360
since school and this has brought it

544
00:21:15.360 –> 00:21:17.420
right back into the

545
00:21:17.420 –> 00:21:19.240
vogue and the political shows

546
00:21:19.240 –> 00:21:21.480
that we make I think have changed the tone

547
00:21:21.480 –> 00:21:23.520
of voice about how people talk about politics.

548
00:21:23.520 –> 00:21:26.580
Alastair uses this great expression that

549
00:21:26.580 –> 00:21:27.700
he wants to

550
00:21:27.700 –> 00:21:29.860
disagree agreeably and I think

551
00:21:29.860 –> 00:21:31.740
younger audiences are

552
00:21:31.740 –> 00:21:33.780
bored of people shouting at each

553
00:21:33.780 –> 00:21:35.400
other and polarise politics.

554
00:21:35.740 –> 00:21:37.480
And what they like about Rory and Alastair is

555
00:21:37.480 –> 00:21:39.720
they don’t agree on stuff but they don’t fall

556
00:21:39.720 –> 00:21:40.400
out about it.

557
00:21:42.060 –> 00:21:43.780
So post-24

558
00:21:43.780 –> 00:21:45.860
and obviously you’ve seen what’s happening with video

559
00:21:45.860 –> 00:21:47.600
and audio, now you’re starting to see

560
00:21:47.600 –> 00:21:49.840
people streaming podcasts on their TVs via YouTube,

561
00:21:50.600 –> 00:21:51.700
Spotify start adding video

562
00:21:51.700 –> 00:21:53.760
feeds, the production investment that’s

563
00:21:53.760 –> 00:21:55.680
going into ensuring that the video is

564
00:21:55.680 –> 00:21:56.900
then of a quality.

565
00:21:58.080 –> 00:21:59.960
And I guess your documentary

566
00:21:59.960 –> 00:22:01.660
background and obviously John who

567
00:22:01.660 –> 00:22:03.820
runs all video for you as well where he’d come

568
00:22:03.820 –> 00:22:05.820
through, we’ve chatted about it with John as well, he’d come

569
00:22:05.820 –> 00:22:07.700
through that period where you were

570
00:22:07.700 –> 00:22:09.540
going audio audio and I think in a sense

571
00:22:09.540 –> 00:22:11.700
he was probably thinking what next and then video

572
00:22:11.700 –> 00:22:13.660
just explodes again. He’s right

573
00:22:13.660 –> 00:22:16.140
at the centre of it but you as a business are right at the centre of it.

574
00:22:17.740 –> 00:22:18.460
At what

575
00:22:18.460 –> 00:22:19.780
point did you

576
00:22:19.780 –> 00:22:21.680
stop calling it the rest is

577
00:22:21.680 –> 00:22:23.820
a podcast and actually it’s just a show.

578
00:22:24.340 –> 00:22:25.660
This is a really difficult thing

579
00:22:25.660 –> 00:22:27.700
because I keep trying

580
00:22:28.240 –> 00:22:29.940
to change the terminology

581
00:22:29.940 –> 00:22:31.920
we use from podcasting

582
00:22:31.920 –> 00:22:33.780
to shows. In fact we had a debate

583
00:22:33.780 –> 00:22:35.860
this week whether or not we should change

584
00:22:35.860 –> 00:22:37.880
the name of the company. So at the company’s

585
00:22:37.880 –> 00:22:40.100
house the company is called Goalhanger Podcasts.

586
00:22:40.120 –> 00:22:41.760
Should we take the podcast away? Because

587
00:22:41.760 –> 00:22:43.800
actually we’re just shows, we’re

588
00:22:43.800 –> 00:22:45.920
just a media network, we produce

589
00:22:45.920 –> 00:22:48.120
shows, we distribute shows, we sell

590
00:22:48.120 –> 00:22:50.240
advertising, we have membership clubs

591
00:22:50.240 –> 00:22:52.060
and subscription, we do live events, it’s actually

592
00:22:52.060 –> 00:22:54.120
a much more broader

593
00:22:54.960 –> 00:22:56.140
field of play

594
00:22:56.140 –> 00:22:57.060
within the media world.

595
00:22:58.400 –> 00:23:00.280
Video is interesting, so we went from

596
00:23:00.820 –> 00:23:02.120
audio to audio

597
00:23:02.120 –> 00:23:03.600
with very simple video,

598
00:23:04.180 –> 00:23:06.220
basically glorified zoom

599
00:23:06.220 –> 00:23:08.280
shot video to

600
00:23:08.280 –> 00:23:10.020
a higher quality version of video.

601
00:23:10.440 –> 00:23:12.460
In the last year we’ve added La Liga

602
00:23:12.460 –> 00:23:14.280
Bites for Spanish football,

603
00:23:14.420 –> 00:23:16.360
we’ve done a deal with British Pathé

604
00:23:16.360 –> 00:23:18.360
so that our history shows carry archive,

605
00:23:18.740 –> 00:23:20.280
we’ve done a deal with Getty Images

606
00:23:20.280 –> 00:23:22.340
so that we can illustrate who we’re talking

607
00:23:22.340 –> 00:23:24.180
about in shows like The Rest is Entertainment

608
00:23:24.180 –> 00:23:26.400
when we’re talking about actors, et cetera,

609
00:23:26.760 –> 00:23:28.560
musicians. So we’ve really

610
00:23:28.560 –> 00:23:30.520
really added and made the video

611
00:23:31.120 –> 00:23:32.360
richer and richer.

612
00:23:32.580 –> 00:23:34.400
That is the idea and we’ve

613
00:23:34.400 –> 00:23:36.460
really seen the benefits of that in terms of the

614
00:23:36.460 –> 00:23:37.440
growing video audience.

615
00:23:38.180 –> 00:23:40.380
And I saw as well, just to build on

616
00:23:40.380 –> 00:23:42.660
that, obviously The Rest is History, you’re doing The Beatles

617
00:23:43.340 –> 00:23:44.420
with Conan O’Brien,

618
00:23:44.420 –> 00:23:46.060
is it a two part?

619
00:23:47.300 –> 00:23:48.480
What can we expect

620
00:23:48.480 –> 00:23:50.600
that to look like as well as sound like?

621
00:23:51.400 –> 00:23:51.880
Unbelievable.

622
00:23:52.780 –> 00:23:54.600
I can’t quite believe they’re letting us do it.

623
00:23:54.760 –> 00:23:56.400
I shouldn’t even say this out loud but

624
00:23:57.240 –> 00:23:57.720
basically

625
00:24:00.200 –> 00:24:01.920
The Beatles just have basically said

626
00:24:01.920 –> 00:24:04.640
use anything you want, so all the music,

627
00:24:05.340 –> 00:24:06.360
all of the

628
00:24:06.360 –> 00:24:08.660
videos, all of the documentary

629
00:24:08.660 –> 00:24:09.360
material.

630
00:24:11.100 –> 00:24:12.640
Tom Holland is a massive Beatles fan,

631
00:24:12.640 –> 00:24:14.960
Conan O’Brien is a massive Beatles fan, we invited him over to

632
00:24:14.960 –> 00:24:16.840
London, they went to Abbey Road

633
00:24:16.840 –> 00:24:18.800
Studios, shot the whole thing there

634
00:24:18.800 –> 00:24:20.520
and we can use anything we like. And of course

635
00:24:21.000 –> 00:24:22.780
we’re telling, I hope,

636
00:24:23.280 –> 00:24:24.660
a brilliant accompanying

637
00:24:24.660 –> 00:24:27.040
story to the

638
00:24:27.040 –> 00:24:28.780
documentaries that have charted The

639
00:24:28.780 –> 00:24:30.980
Beatles’ successes. We’re retelling

640
00:24:30.980 –> 00:24:32.740
The Beatles’ story. I think that says a lot

641
00:24:32.740 –> 00:24:33.660
that they’ve obviously given,

642
00:24:35.200 –> 00:24:36.820
such is the trust now

643
00:24:36.820 –> 00:24:38.500
in the business that you’ve built,

644
00:24:39.080 –> 00:24:40.620
the trust that you’ll do it

645
00:24:40.620 –> 00:24:42.460
justice and tell a great story.

646
00:24:42.560 –> 00:24:44.640
And I think in a long-form sense

647
00:24:44.640 –> 00:24:46.160
too, and reach an audience that

648
00:24:46.860 –> 00:24:48.600
honestly, are they reaching in any other way?

649
00:24:49.240 –> 00:24:50.680
That’s a good question. We’re

650
00:24:50.680 –> 00:24:52.500
definitely a younger audience and they’ll get anywhere

651
00:24:52.500 –> 00:24:54.320
else. As I say,

652
00:24:54.620 –> 00:24:56.420
half the audience is in their 20s and early 30s

653
00:24:56.420 –> 00:24:58.340
so that makes it unusual.

654
00:24:59.720 –> 00:25:00.700
And also the audience is

655
00:25:00.700 –> 00:25:01.860
big, it’s got scale.

656
00:25:03.560 –> 00:25:04.580
And you know,

657
00:25:05.300 –> 00:25:06.420
it’s not a puff piece,

658
00:25:06.460 –> 00:25:08.540
we’re allowed to say what we like and there

659
00:25:08.540 –> 00:25:10.680
are strong controls over it. We did a similar thing recently

660
00:25:10.680 –> 00:25:12.460
with Disney, went out to see Bob Iger

661
00:25:12.460 –> 00:25:14.580
at Disney, who runs Disney and

662
00:25:14.580 –> 00:25:16.840
told the story of Walt Disney, which was fascinating.

663
00:25:17.240 –> 00:25:19.140
And again, he allowed us to use

664
00:25:19.140 –> 00:25:20.280
footage from the movies,

665
00:25:20.820 –> 00:25:22.660
all the way back in time to

666
00:25:22.660 –> 00:25:24.560
black and white, the very early days

667
00:25:24.560 –> 00:25:26.900
of animation. So yeah, I think this is a whole

668
00:25:26.900 –> 00:25:27.860
bold new world.

669
00:25:28.960 –> 00:25:30.480
And you touched on La Liga early,

670
00:25:30.640 –> 00:25:33.340
obviously this partnership now you’ve got with La Liga,

671
00:25:34.360 –> 00:25:34.760
highlights.

672
00:25:34.880 –> 00:25:36.580
And I know you were excited about when you did

673
00:25:36.580 –> 00:25:39.200
that, because I think basically, and again we’re talking about Shores

674
00:25:39.200 –> 00:25:41.020
as a podcast, but first podcast

675
00:25:41.020 –> 00:25:42.540
to do that kind of deal,

676
00:25:42.640 –> 00:25:44.640
to bring highlights into a video

677
00:25:44.640 –> 00:25:46.160
podcast. Like again,

678
00:25:46.260 –> 00:25:48.820
where did that come from, that idea that you wanted to

679
00:25:48.820 –> 00:25:49.620
transform in that way?

680
00:25:50.280 –> 00:25:52.840
Well, I wanted to make the content

681
00:25:52.840 –> 00:25:54.620
richer and I wanted there

682
00:25:54.620 –> 00:25:56.800
to be a greater reason

683
00:25:56.800 –> 00:25:58.680
for audiences to come to

684
00:25:58.680 –> 00:26:00.460
the show. So you know, obviously

685
00:26:00.460 –> 00:26:02.640
you can watch Premier League highlights

686
00:26:03.240 –> 00:26:04.640
on Sky, Match of the Day,

687
00:26:04.640 –> 00:26:06.280
TNT, etc. You can do all that.

688
00:26:07.520 –> 00:26:08.840
So we were basically

689
00:26:08.840 –> 00:26:10.840
providing conversation around

690
00:26:10.840 –> 00:26:12.180
the live events.

691
00:26:12.620 –> 00:26:14.560
The natural next step for us

692
00:26:14.560 –> 00:26:16.500
was to say, we’re talking about

693
00:26:16.500 –> 00:26:18.560
what’s happened in the games over the weekend,

694
00:26:19.080 –> 00:26:20.620
can we show what’s happened and

695
00:26:20.620 –> 00:26:22.200
actually illustrate what we’re talking about?

696
00:26:22.480 –> 00:26:24.200
Now the Premier League is obviously

697
00:26:24.200 –> 00:26:26.060
the holy grail of that,

698
00:26:26.500 –> 00:26:28.580
and there’s probably a few

699
00:26:28.580 –> 00:26:31.040
steps still to be taken before that

700
00:26:31.040 –> 00:26:32.680
fully happens. But

701
00:26:32.680 –> 00:26:35.000
La Liga was available, it was up for renewal.

702
00:26:35.400 –> 00:26:36.840
I contacted MediaPro,

703
00:26:36.840 –> 00:26:37.640
the agency,

704
00:26:38.660 –> 00:26:40.660
and they were up for experimenting.

705
00:26:40.780 –> 00:26:42.520
They’d never done a deal with a podcast before.

706
00:26:43.080 –> 00:26:44.720
And so, you know,

707
00:26:44.860 –> 00:26:46.480
fortunately we have a business model now

708
00:26:46.480 –> 00:26:48.180
that provides us with, you know,

709
00:26:48.300 –> 00:26:49.520
it makes money.

710
00:26:50.220 –> 00:26:52.660
We’re not going to outbid

711
00:26:52.660 –> 00:26:54.860
major TV networks for rights,

712
00:26:54.880 –> 00:26:56.700
but we have some money and we’re

713
00:26:56.700 –> 00:26:58.280
able to say, let’s invest.

714
00:26:59.540 –> 00:27:00.700
OK, so now we’re going to jump

715
00:27:00.700 –> 00:27:02.720
to the quickfire question. So Tony,

716
00:27:03.260 –> 00:27:04.980
I’ve got 25 questions, see if we can

717
00:27:04.980 –> 00:27:05.640
get through them.

718
00:27:06.820 –> 00:27:08.680
First thing that comes into your mind, you don’t have to lay up

719
00:27:08.680 –> 00:27:10.720
for a long time on them, but you, you know, you can go as far

720
00:27:10.720 –> 00:27:12.820
as you want to go. OK, here we go.

721
00:27:14.160 –> 00:27:14.780
Sports leagues as right

722
00:27:14.780 –> 00:27:16.180
holders or content partners?

723
00:27:17.840 –> 00:27:18.720
Content partners.

724
00:27:19.660 –> 00:27:20.760
Biggest barrier to podcasts

725
00:27:20.760 –> 00:27:21.920
replacing traditional media?

726
00:27:23.220 –> 00:27:23.660
Rights.

727
00:27:24.760 –> 00:27:26.980
Quality or frequency? What wins the audience

728
00:27:26.980 –> 00:27:27.240
war?

729
00:27:29.740 –> 00:27:30.220
Frequency.

730
00:27:30.500 –> 00:27:31.340
Best growth

731
00:27:31.340 –> 00:27:33.480
lever? Algorithm or word of mouth?

732
00:27:34.040 –> 00:27:35.580
Word of mouth. We know that

733
00:27:35.580 –> 00:27:37.060
100% from the rest of history.

734
00:27:38.820 –> 00:27:39.760
Biggest problem with

735
00:27:39.760 –> 00:27:40.620
podcast discovery?

736
00:27:42.300 –> 00:27:43.540
In a lot of platforms,

737
00:27:43.620 –> 00:27:45.280
there’s no algorithmic support,

738
00:27:45.680 –> 00:27:47.500
so there’s nothing that says you enjoyed

739
00:27:47.500 –> 00:27:49.480
this, try this. So in a sense, you have to

740
00:27:49.480 –> 00:27:51.540
get people there yourselves. That’s why word of mouth

741
00:27:51.540 –> 00:27:52.120
is so important.

742
00:27:53.440 –> 00:27:55.140
World Cup 2026,

743
00:27:55.140 –> 00:27:57.340
compliment traditional coverage or compete

744
00:27:57.340 –> 00:27:59.220
with it? Oh, definitely

745
00:27:59.220 –> 00:28:01.260
compliment it.

746
00:28:01.580 –> 00:28:03.180
Chemistry or expertise? What matters more

747
00:28:03.180 –> 00:28:03.700
for hosts?

748
00:28:05.140 –> 00:28:07.220
Chemistry, and I would go one more than that

749
00:28:07.220 –> 00:28:08.880
and I would say that

750
00:28:08.880 –> 00:28:11.240
you don’t need people who are the

751
00:28:11.240 –> 00:28:13.200
greatest experts in the world, but they need

752
00:28:13.200 –> 00:28:15.260
to be brilliant communicators of what

753
00:28:15.260 –> 00:28:16.160
they know.

754
00:28:16.900 –> 00:28:19.120
Biggest content sin? Too long or too polished?

755
00:28:20.100 –> 00:28:21.320
I wouldn’t call either of them

756
00:28:21.320 –> 00:28:21.800
a sin.

757
00:28:23.320 –> 00:28:24.640
Best podcast length?

758
00:28:24.680 –> 00:28:26.140
30 minutes or 90 minutes?

759
00:28:26.640 –> 00:28:29.060
For us, definitely 30 minutes.

760
00:28:29.740 –> 00:28:30.080
Scripted

761
00:28:30.080 –> 00:28:31.920
sports shows or pure conversation?

762
00:28:33.480 –> 00:28:34.740
Definitely pure conversation

763
00:28:34.740 –> 00:28:36.120
across all genres, not just

764
00:28:36.120 –> 00:28:36.480
sport.

765
00:28:37.300 –> 00:28:39.060
Biggest surprise about podcast audiences?

766
00:28:40.060 –> 00:28:41.300
Incredibly young.

767
00:28:43.260 –> 00:28:43.940
Own the platform

768
00:28:43.940 –> 00:28:46.080
or own the content? Own the content

769
00:28:46.080 –> 00:28:48.020
every time. Premium subscribers

770
00:28:48.020 –> 00:28:49.620
or mass audience? Both.

771
00:28:50.940 –> 00:28:52.020
Reactive recordings

772
00:28:52.020 –> 00:28:53.920
or planned launchers?

773
00:28:54.440 –> 00:28:55.960
Well, we do both, but

774
00:28:55.960 –> 00:28:57.860
reactive recordings to

775
00:28:57.860 –> 00:28:59.840
timely news breaking

776
00:28:59.840 –> 00:29:01.940
stories are always our biggest

777
00:29:01.940 –> 00:29:03.660
watched and listened to shows.

778
00:29:04.520 –> 00:29:05.580
Podcasting in 2030,

779
00:29:05.760 –> 00:29:06.680
what’s the biggest change?

780
00:29:07.580 –> 00:29:10.020
It’ll look very like television.

781
00:29:11.260 –> 00:29:12.040
Will podcast

782
00:29:12.040 –> 00:29:13.580
even be the right word in five years time?

783
00:29:13.880 –> 00:29:15.380
Not sure it’s the right word now.

784
00:29:16.360 –> 00:29:17.440
Olympics 2028,

785
00:29:17.440 –> 00:29:19.360
traditional broadcast or creator led?

786
00:29:19.860 –> 00:29:21.540
It’ll be both. You can’t have one without

787
00:29:21.540 –> 00:29:21.960
the other.

788
00:29:23.240 –> 00:29:25.520
Biggest tech innovation needed in podcasting right now?

789
00:29:26.340 –> 00:29:27.900
Biggest tech innovation?

790
00:29:29.420 –> 00:29:29.700
I mean,

791
00:29:29.700 –> 00:29:31.480
this is a bit in the weeds, but we

792
00:29:31.480 –> 00:29:33.440
would like dynamic insertion

793
00:29:33.960 –> 00:29:35.700
of video advertising.

794
00:29:35.880 –> 00:29:37.440
At the moment, you can only burn it in.

795
00:29:37.540 –> 00:29:39.660
It’s pretty limiting. It means somebody in America

796
00:29:39.660 –> 00:29:41.580
sees the same advert as somebody in the UK.

797
00:29:42.020 –> 00:29:43.580
Tedious for them, commercially

798
00:29:43.580 –> 00:29:44.520
worthless for us.

799
00:29:45.320 –> 00:29:46.880
Sports leagues as media companies,

800
00:29:47.060 –> 00:29:48.300
inevitable or impossible?

801
00:29:49.940 –> 00:29:50.760
It’s definitely not

802
00:29:51.340 –> 00:29:51.780
impossible.

803
00:29:52.600 –> 00:29:54.540
It may not be inevitable. They may always seek

804
00:29:54.540 –> 00:29:56.540
partners. Hot take, should

805
00:29:56.540 –> 00:29:58.480
the BBC be worried? I mean, that’s quite wide

806
00:29:58.480 –> 00:29:59.420
ranging that to be fair.

807
00:30:00.340 –> 00:30:02.520
No, I don’t think so. I just think they need to

808
00:30:03.640 –> 00:30:04.660
carry on being

809
00:30:04.660 –> 00:30:06.620
very good at the things they’re very good at

810
00:30:06.620 –> 00:30:07.880
that many other people don’t do.

811
00:30:09.140 –> 00:30:10.400
Controversial or podcast charts

812
00:30:10.400 –> 00:30:12.320
meaningless? Podcast

813
00:30:12.320 –> 00:30:14.540
charts are pretty

814
00:30:14.540 –> 00:30:16.420
meaningless because we don’t even

815
00:30:17.560 –> 00:30:18.480
understand what

816
00:30:19.040 –> 00:30:20.440
allows a show to

817
00:30:20.440 –> 00:30:21.640
rise in the chart or fall.

818
00:30:22.060 –> 00:30:24.280
So it’s not necessarily based on listenership or viewership?

819
00:30:24.420 –> 00:30:26.360
We often, if you don’t mind me saying

820
00:30:26.360 –> 00:30:28.340
this, you know, we’ll often have five or six of

821
00:30:28.340 –> 00:30:30.180
the top ten. They’re never in the right order.

822
00:30:30.580 –> 00:30:32.340
Right, got you. Agree

823
00:30:32.340 –> 00:30:34.620
or disagree, sports leagues don’t understand their audiences?

824
00:30:36.360 –> 00:30:38.340
I think they

825
00:30:38.340 –> 00:30:40.240
understand them a bit, but

826
00:30:40.240 –> 00:30:42.580
they don’t care enough because

827
00:30:42.580 –> 00:30:44.480
traditionally people have spent enough

828
00:30:44.480 –> 00:30:46.220
money through television rights

829
00:30:46.220 –> 00:30:47.760
for them not to worry about it.

830
00:30:48.220 –> 00:30:50.020
Last three questions. Yes or no? Can creators

831
00:30:50.020 –> 00:30:51.740
outbid traditional broadcasters for rights?

832
00:30:53.660 –> 00:30:54.120
Yes,

833
00:30:54.340 –> 00:30:56.280
I mean, you know, the likes of

834
00:30:56.280 –> 00:30:57.880
Jake Paul will probably prove this.

835
00:30:58.640 –> 00:31:00.280
Bold prediction. What media company

836
00:31:00.280 –> 00:31:01.560
doesn’t exist in ten years time?

837
00:31:03.040 –> 00:31:04.240
I don’t honestly

838
00:31:04.240 –> 00:31:06.360
know the answer to that, but I think if I was

839
00:31:06.360 –> 00:31:07.980
in commercial radio

840
00:31:07.980 –> 00:31:09.620
I would be concerned.

841
00:31:10.760 –> 00:31:12.220
Hot or not, exclusive

842
00:31:12.220 –> 00:31:12.960
platform deals?

843
00:31:14.600 –> 00:31:15.860
They are hot,

844
00:31:15.880 –> 00:31:17.980
but I don’t think they will

845
00:31:18.800 –> 00:31:20.000
necessarily be around forever.

846
00:31:20.360 –> 00:31:22.120
I do, however, think there will always be premium

847
00:31:22.120 –> 00:31:24.100
brands that get very,

848
00:31:24.100 –> 00:31:25.480
very big exclusive deals.

849
00:31:25.940 –> 00:31:27.400
That’s it, thanks Tony. My pleasure.

850
00:31:29.500 –> 00:31:29.600
So,

851
00:31:30.860 –> 00:31:31.960
Netflix, the news

852
00:31:31.960 –> 00:31:33.200
has broke over the last couple of days.

853
00:31:33.800 –> 00:31:35.300
You’ve done a partnership with Netflix

854
00:31:35.880 –> 00:31:36.840
around the World Cup.

855
00:31:38.680 –> 00:31:39.660
So, this is

856
00:31:39.660 –> 00:31:41.160
obviously massive, right? I mean, I know

857
00:31:41.160 –> 00:31:43.420
we’ve been talking about this for a while, that Netflix started to move into the

858
00:31:43.420 –> 00:31:45.760
world of video podcasts.

859
00:31:46.980 –> 00:31:47.320
What

860
00:31:47.320 –> 00:31:48.980
does it mean for you at Gorlang?

861
00:31:49.200 –> 00:31:51.120
And tell us a bit more about what, you know, what

862
00:31:51.120 –> 00:31:52.940
are the plans? What can you say about the plans for the summer?

863
00:31:53.120 –> 00:31:54.620
Well, I can tell you a bit about the plans.

864
00:31:55.200 –> 00:31:56.780
We’re going to be daily.

865
00:31:57.220 –> 00:31:59.280
It’s the biggest World Cup ever. It’s got

866
00:31:59.280 –> 00:32:01.280
more teams than ever, 48 teams this time.

867
00:32:02.120 –> 00:32:03.320
The World Cup’s going to last longer.

868
00:32:03.320 –> 00:32:05.460
We’re going to put out

869
00:32:05.460 –> 00:32:07.460
a show every day for 40 days.

870
00:32:08.500 –> 00:32:09.340
So, Gary

871
00:32:09.340 –> 00:32:11.580
Lineker will host the show from New York City.

872
00:32:12.400 –> 00:32:13.300
We’ve got some brilliant

873
00:32:13.300 –> 00:32:15.460
plans for where the studio is going to be. It’s going to

874
00:32:15.460 –> 00:32:16.680
surprise a few people, I think.

875
00:32:18.040 –> 00:32:19.220
And Alan and Michael will be in the show

876
00:32:19.220 –> 00:32:21.460
each day, and we’re going to have big-name guests.

877
00:32:21.740 –> 00:32:23.400
And we’re going to make some

878
00:32:23.400 –> 00:32:25.560
VTs, and we’re going to hopefully have

879
00:32:25.560 –> 00:32:27.540
reporters out and about, bringing back stories

880
00:32:27.540 –> 00:32:29.220
and embedded in camps,

881
00:32:29.400 –> 00:32:31.460
like the England camp. So, yeah,

882
00:32:31.460 –> 00:32:33.120
I think it’s going to be a lot of fun.

883
00:32:33.560 –> 00:32:35.440
Two years ago, we did the same thing in Berlin,

884
00:32:35.720 –> 00:32:37.100
but we did it just for ourselves.

885
00:32:37.240 –> 00:32:39.680
We did it, as it were, without a partner.

886
00:32:41.340 –> 00:32:41.740
And

887
00:32:42.480 –> 00:32:43.580
it was amazing.

888
00:32:43.840 –> 00:32:44.820
Our numbers were terrific.

889
00:32:45.120 –> 00:32:47.240
And this time, Netflix approached us and said

890
00:32:47.240 –> 00:32:49.940
we’d be really keen to bring

891
00:32:49.940 –> 00:32:51.400
the rest of football to Netflix.

892
00:32:51.880 –> 00:32:53.880
Interesting. They told us that, you know,

893
00:32:54.080 –> 00:32:55.620
football’s such a dominant

894
00:32:55.620 –> 00:32:57.500
story during the month of a major

895
00:32:57.500 –> 00:32:59.360
tournament that perhaps

896
00:32:59.360 –> 00:33:01.640
there’s a sense that people don’t

897
00:33:01.640 –> 00:33:03.680
need their dramas and their box

898
00:33:03.680 –> 00:33:05.320
sets and the stuff that they come to, to

899
00:33:05.320 –> 00:33:07.060
Netflix all the time, in quite the same way.

900
00:33:07.360 –> 00:33:09.600
And I think what Netflix feel

901
00:33:09.600 –> 00:33:11.360
is that being

902
00:33:11.360 –> 00:33:13.400
part of the story that’s timely, that’s

903
00:33:13.400 –> 00:33:14.880
going on right there in the world car

904
00:33:15.360 –> 00:33:17.400
actually puts them back at the

905
00:33:17.400 –> 00:33:19.400
forefront of people’s minds, makes them super relevant

906
00:33:19.400 –> 00:33:21.040
during that month. So, yeah,

907
00:33:21.680 –> 00:33:23.380
I think it’s an industry-defining

908
00:33:24.700 –> 00:33:25.180
partnership.

909
00:33:25.460 –> 00:33:26.760
It’s the first time

910
00:33:26.760 –> 00:33:28.980
I can think of of a major

911
00:33:28.980 –> 00:33:29.780
deal between

912
00:33:30.560 –> 00:33:32.820
a show that started out as an audio

913
00:33:32.820 –> 00:33:34.780
podcast and came all the way through video

914
00:33:34.780 –> 00:33:36.840
and is now a TV

915
00:33:36.840 –> 00:33:37.900
streaming proposition.

916
00:33:38.760 –> 00:33:41.100
Big deal, I think. I’m going to be really cheeky.

917
00:33:41.160 –> 00:33:42.920
Can you talk about the size of the deal?

918
00:33:44.880 –> 00:33:45.320
It’s

919
00:33:45.320 –> 00:33:46.820
a good deal. It’s a multi-million

920
00:33:46.820 –> 00:33:47.560
pound deal.

921
00:33:49.480 –> 00:33:50.700
We have a

922
00:33:50.700 –> 00:33:52.720
very generous

923
00:33:52.720 –> 00:33:54.660
way of paying our talent at Goalhanger.

924
00:33:54.660 –> 00:33:56.740
So, we’re very

925
00:33:56.740 –> 00:33:58.660
collaborative. We share a lot and

926
00:33:59.240 –> 00:34:00.620
our talent will do really well out of it,

927
00:34:00.620 –> 00:34:02.420
as they should do. It’s their show and

928
00:34:02.420 –> 00:34:03.640
they do a brilliant job.

929
00:34:04.480 –> 00:34:07.040
Yeah, it’s a great deal and

930
00:34:07.040 –> 00:34:08.580
we’re going to invest

931
00:34:08.580 –> 00:34:10.560
heavily. We’re going to make sure it looks absolutely

932
00:34:10.560 –> 00:34:12.580
fantastic. I think we haven’t

933
00:34:12.580 –> 00:34:14.679
really touched on the model and how you work with talent

934
00:34:14.679 –> 00:34:16.659
as well, but ultimately you

935
00:34:17.719 –> 00:34:18.639
share things effectively

936
00:34:18.639 –> 00:34:21.120
with the talent, right? You’ve never necessarily been about

937
00:34:23.840 –> 00:34:24.639
guarantees and

938
00:34:24.639 –> 00:34:26.239
guarantee. If they want to come and work with you,

939
00:34:26.940 –> 00:34:28.580
they’ve got to invest themselves in it,

940
00:34:28.580 –> 00:34:30.560
but you will make sure that there’s

941
00:34:30.560 –> 00:34:31.120
equal shares.

942
00:34:33.100 –> 00:34:35.060
I don’t talk about individuals

943
00:34:35.060 –> 00:34:36.060
and what we’re paying, but

944
00:34:36.639 –> 00:34:37.920
we are very equitable.

945
00:34:38.900 –> 00:34:40.580
We build shows together.

946
00:34:40.699 –> 00:34:42.780
We see them very much as being

947
00:34:42.780 –> 00:34:43.699
collaborations.

948
00:34:45.320 –> 00:34:46.460
Each of our shows

949
00:34:46.460 –> 00:34:48.580
hosts benefits

950
00:34:48.580 –> 00:34:49.960
if they’re showed as well.

951
00:34:50.719 –> 00:34:52.560
By the way, the

952
00:34:52.560 –> 00:34:54.500
opposite is true. They’re not given

953
00:34:54.500 –> 00:34:56.040
guarantees by and large.

954
00:34:57.020 –> 00:34:58.340
Most of them

955
00:34:58.340 –> 00:35:00.720
earn well if it does really

956
00:35:00.720 –> 00:35:02.640
well. We’re comfortable with that because everybody’s

957
00:35:02.640 –> 00:35:03.240
super aligned.

958
00:35:04.340 –> 00:35:06.460
Interesting. Just coming back to Netflix

959
00:35:06.460 –> 00:35:08.580
then, who approached

960
00:35:08.580 –> 00:35:10.520
who with that? What was the

961
00:35:10.520 –> 00:35:12.580
timeline? How long did it take

962
00:35:12.580 –> 00:35:14.000
to bring this together?

963
00:35:14.780 –> 00:35:16.600
You’ll be shocked to hear it was not

964
00:35:16.600 –> 00:35:17.780
an overnight matter.

965
00:35:18.640 –> 00:35:20.560
It took a little bit of time.

966
00:35:20.560 –> 00:35:22.260
Not least because it’s unusual.

967
00:35:22.900 –> 00:35:24.180
The model’s unusual.

968
00:35:25.180 –> 00:35:26.160
It’s not the usual thing for

969
00:35:26.160 –> 00:35:28.480
Netflix. I’ve talked about this quite a bit.

970
00:35:29.000 –> 00:35:30.600
Netflix tend to home in on

971
00:35:31.340 –> 00:35:32.300
short moments.

972
00:35:32.940 –> 00:35:34.700
They’ll do the boxing and things like that.

973
00:35:34.880 –> 00:35:36.100
They tend to not do things

974
00:35:37.280 –> 00:35:38.440
from a sporting perspective

975
00:35:38.440 –> 00:35:40.820
over a long period of time, which this is, right?

976
00:35:41.780 –> 00:35:42.260
Yes.

977
00:35:42.840 –> 00:35:43.840
It’s borderline six weeks.

978
00:35:44.580 –> 00:35:45.520
It is unusual.

979
00:35:46.220 –> 00:35:47.540
They don’t normally

980
00:35:48.360 –> 00:35:49.280
just take

981
00:35:49.280 –> 00:35:51.620
an existing IP that’s already

982
00:35:51.620 –> 00:35:53.680
got its own audience and just transplant

983
00:35:53.680 –> 00:35:55.220
it onto their platform.

984
00:35:55.280 –> 00:35:55.840
They tend to build things.

985
00:35:55.920 –> 00:35:59.420
They would license things in a slightly different way.

986
00:36:00.320 –> 00:36:01.640
It is unusual. They approached

987
00:36:01.640 –> 00:36:03.680
us. We have a relationship with them anyway

988
00:36:03.680 –> 00:36:05.600
from going back many years. We know all the

989
00:36:05.600 –> 00:36:07.650
commissions there. I got called in

990
00:36:08.060 –> 00:36:09.580
to talk about how we

991
00:36:09.580 –> 00:36:11.860
could potentially be collaborative.

992
00:36:12.860 –> 00:36:13.680
I genuinely

993
00:36:13.680 –> 00:36:14.940
didn’t know what they were going to ask me.

994
00:36:14.940 –> 00:36:17.700
I wondered, actually, whether or not it would be

995
00:36:17.700 –> 00:36:19.080
a conversation about the rest of history.

996
00:36:20.520 –> 00:36:21.180
You could

997
00:36:21.180 –> 00:36:23.080
imagine, for example, let’s say they

998
00:36:23.080 –> 00:36:25.140
do a big drama

999
00:36:25.140 –> 00:36:27.020
series about Queen Victoria.

1000
00:36:27.100 –> 00:36:28.980
You can imagine a scenario in which they wanted six

1001
00:36:28.980 –> 00:36:31.020
episodes with Tom and Dominic telling you the true

1002
00:36:31.020 –> 00:36:33.020
story of Queen Victoria.

1003
00:36:33.240 –> 00:36:35.240
You can imagine an extension, a kind of

1004
00:36:35.240 –> 00:36:36.780
halo of content around

1005
00:36:36.780 –> 00:36:38.260
the hero content.

1006
00:36:39.240 –> 00:36:41.140
They were interested, but then what they said

1007
00:36:41.140 –> 00:36:42.840
was, listen, we want to talk about the World Cup.

1008
00:36:43.640 –> 00:36:44.960
As soon as they

1009
00:36:44.960 –> 00:36:47.060
outlined their plans, we were really, really keen.

1010
00:36:48.000 –> 00:36:48.800
It was exciting

1011
00:36:48.800 –> 00:36:49.860
for us. We had

1012
00:36:51.140 –> 00:36:52.860
produced, as I said

1013
00:36:52.860 –> 00:36:54.820
before, the Euros in Berlin

1014
00:36:54.820 –> 00:36:55.760
on video.

1015
00:36:56.640 –> 00:36:58.480
This was a whole step up.

1016
00:36:58.800 –> 00:37:00.860
It would allow us to invest in

1017
00:37:00.860 –> 00:37:02.780
the program to a really high level.

1018
00:37:03.240 –> 00:37:04.340
Superb studio,

1019
00:37:04.840 –> 00:37:06.800
great set, loads of ETs,

1020
00:37:07.420 –> 00:37:08.820
reporters, being named

1021
00:37:08.820 –> 00:37:11.060
guests. It just allowed us to really

1022
00:37:11.060 –> 00:37:13.520
scale, and of course, it allowed us

1023
00:37:13.520 –> 00:37:15.320
to talk to Netflix’s audience,

1024
00:37:15.820 –> 00:37:16.920
which is extensive

1025
00:37:17.320 –> 00:37:17.940
and global.

1026
00:37:19.120 –> 00:37:21.240
I think what I like about this as well,

1027
00:37:21.340 –> 00:37:23.160
which pretty much all of your content

1028
00:37:23.160 –> 00:37:23.760
has been based on,

1029
00:37:24.980 –> 00:37:27.220
it proves that, and something that Lee

1030
00:37:27.220 –> 00:37:29.220
and Joe who do these podcasts with me regularly as well, we talk about

1031
00:37:29.220 –> 00:37:31.200
all the time, is kind of like, you don’t

1032
00:37:31.200 –> 00:37:32.940
need rights to be able to do this.

1033
00:37:33.140 –> 00:37:35.500
People want the story behind the story,

1034
00:37:36.020 –> 00:37:37.060
and that’s what you’ve

1035
00:37:38.220 –> 00:37:39.060
there’s a reality

1036
00:37:39.060 –> 00:37:41.420
why you’re as big as you are, because you’ve exemplified

1037
00:37:41.420 –> 00:37:43.460
that. Ultimately, you go deep on stories

1038
00:37:43.460 –> 00:37:45.240
and not afraid to go deep on it

1039
00:37:45.240 –> 00:37:47.220
too. I’ll give you a really interesting example

1040
00:37:47.220 –> 00:37:49.140
of this. During the

1041
00:37:49.140 –> 00:37:50.780
run-ups of the UK

1042
00:37:50.780 –> 00:37:51.860
elections,

1043
00:37:53.800 –> 00:37:55.110
we live-streamed

1044
00:37:56.420 –> 00:37:56.960
immediately

1045
00:37:56.960 –> 00:37:58.980
off the back of the leaders’

1046
00:37:59.700 –> 00:38:00.960
debates, the debates

1047
00:38:00.960 –> 00:38:03.240
between Starmer

1048
00:38:03.240 –> 00:38:05.320
and Sunak, et cetera, on the

1049
00:38:05.320 –> 00:38:07.360
mainstream TV channels. We would

1050
00:38:07.360 –> 00:38:09.400
do a live-stream immediately off the back of them to

1051
00:38:09.400 –> 00:38:11.400
talk about what we thought

1052
00:38:11.400 –> 00:38:13.000
of the debate. Those

1053
00:38:13.000 –> 00:38:15.240
live-streams out-rated

1054
00:38:15.240 –> 00:38:17.260
the actual thing they were talking about.

1055
00:38:17.540 –> 00:38:19.100
People were more interested

1056
00:38:19.100 –> 00:38:21.600
in the honest conversation

1057
00:38:21.600 –> 00:38:23.360
of Alistair and Rory debating

1058
00:38:23.360 –> 00:38:24.880
it in normal language

1059
00:38:24.880 –> 00:38:27.300
than the kind of

1060
00:38:27.300 –> 00:38:29.420
semi-scripted,

1061
00:38:29.680 –> 00:38:31.300
slightly tedious way that

1062
00:38:31.300 –> 00:38:33.600
senior politicians often talk to each other on screen.

1063
00:38:34.200 –> 00:38:35.220
It became

1064
00:38:35.220 –> 00:38:37.320
bizarre that the analysis

1065
00:38:37.320 –> 00:38:39.260
of the event was watched by

1066
00:38:39.260 –> 00:38:40.620
more people than the event itself.

1067
00:38:40.840 –> 00:38:43.020
We had the same thing when we did the US election

1068
00:38:43.020 –> 00:38:45.280
in New York, that we did a

1069
00:38:45.280 –> 00:38:47.120
24-hour live-stream with a few breaks

1070
00:38:47.120 –> 00:38:49.240
in between, and we found that we got more people

1071
00:38:49.240 –> 00:38:51.720
watching that than watched traditional media

1072
00:38:52.240 –> 00:38:52.720
digitally.

1073
00:38:53.140 –> 00:38:55.120
Ultimately, we realized that actually you can

1074
00:38:55.120 –> 00:38:57.060
go to an audience and do it in a different kind of way

1075
00:38:57.060 –> 00:38:59.040
and not be beholding to any particular

1076
00:38:59.040 –> 00:39:01.060
political message or any media

1077
00:39:01.060 –> 00:39:03.080
agenda, and

1078
00:39:03.080 –> 00:39:03.780
we found a similar audience.

1079
00:39:04.840 –> 00:39:07.100
Really good people talking

1080
00:39:08.120 –> 00:39:08.920
engagingly, intelligently

1081
00:39:08.920 –> 00:39:11.020
about something they know a lot about is

1082
00:39:11.020 –> 00:39:13.260
a very attractive proposition

1083
00:39:13.260 –> 00:39:15.320
to the audience. And the mix was good as well, right, because it wasn’t all politicians,

1084
00:39:15.400 –> 00:39:17.080
because you had Marina from an entertainment perspective,

1085
00:39:17.280 –> 00:39:18.340
Dominic from a history perspective,

1086
00:39:19.020 –> 00:39:21.000
a procession of very intelligent people

1087
00:39:21.000 –> 00:39:22.000
coming in between,

1088
00:39:23.180 –> 00:39:24.940
the mooch dropping in from town to town as well,

1089
00:39:25.080 –> 00:39:26.720
so a little bit of sparking of stardust.

1090
00:39:27.860 –> 00:39:28.920
And it did, and look,

1091
00:39:29.020 –> 00:39:30.860
it was a long old stint, right?

1092
00:39:30.860 –> 00:39:33.220
It was terrific. And you went back to some of your old producing days.

1093
00:39:33.520 –> 00:39:34.960
It was great, yeah, directed it.

1094
00:39:35.000 –> 00:39:36.660
It was wild, yeah, I really enjoyed it.

1095
00:39:36.820 –> 00:39:39.320
It was fascinating, and

1096
00:39:39.980 –> 00:39:41.020
Dominic Sandbrook was the only

1097
00:39:41.020 –> 00:39:42.860
one who called correctly that Trump

1098
00:39:42.860 –> 00:39:45.040
would win that night. I think he did himself no harm.

1099
00:39:45.060 –> 00:39:46.980
Rory was destroyed, he just looked like a broken

1100
00:39:46.980 –> 00:39:49.060
man. Poor old Rory was absolutely certain

1101
00:39:49.880 –> 00:39:51.060
that Kamala Harris would win

1102
00:39:51.060 –> 00:39:52.700
and obviously turned out to be wrong.

1103
00:39:53.500 –> 00:39:54.880
But partly, I think that’s part of the fun

1104
00:39:54.880 –> 00:39:56.400
of it is that people

1105
00:39:56.860 –> 00:39:59.060
were slightly critical afterwards that some of the people got it

1106
00:39:59.060 –> 00:40:01.280
wrong, and I said, look, you know, we asked them to give

1107
00:40:01.280 –> 00:40:02.940
their honest opinions, not to hedge,

1108
00:40:03.040 –> 00:40:05.240
not to be careful, and

1109
00:40:05.240 –> 00:40:07.220
you can’t expect people to talk about

1110
00:40:07.220 –> 00:40:09.080
football and politics and get everything right

1111
00:40:09.080 –> 00:40:10.500
all the time, that’s not how it works.

1112
00:40:12.460 –> 00:40:12.900
So,

1113
00:40:13.260 –> 00:40:15.100
interesting now, so,

1114
00:40:15.700 –> 00:40:17.300
what you’re doing with Netflix now

1115
00:40:17.300 –> 00:40:19.200
and it’s going to be fascinating to see,

1116
00:40:19.660 –> 00:40:21.180
I mean, is it all

1117
00:40:21.180 –> 00:40:22.960
going to be pre-recorded, is it going to be live,

1118
00:40:23.300 –> 00:40:24.640
are you still working that out?

1119
00:40:24.980 –> 00:40:27.080
It’s going to be a mixture. The show’s going to be

1120
00:40:28.660 –> 00:40:29.060
daily,

1121
00:40:29.080 –> 00:40:31.180
as I say, we’re going to record it after

1122
00:40:31.180 –> 00:40:33.200
the game, so pretty late out

1123
00:40:33.200 –> 00:40:35.140
there in the US. It is going to be

1124
00:40:35.140 –> 00:40:37.040
predominately for a UK audience, that

1125
00:40:37.040 –> 00:40:39.220
is our target, but it

1126
00:40:39.220 –> 00:40:41.240
isn’t going to be geo-blocked, you’ll be able to watch it wherever

1127
00:40:41.240 –> 00:40:43.400
you can get Netflix, so, you know,

1128
00:40:43.680 –> 00:40:45.140
we’re hoping that we’ll get a significant

1129
00:40:45.140 –> 00:40:47.120
audience around the world, but it will be British

1130
00:40:47.120 –> 00:40:49.020
focused, and

1131
00:40:49.020 –> 00:40:51.100
of course, The Home Nation is going to be really well

1132
00:40:51.100 –> 00:40:53.160
represented out there, so there’s going to be a lot to talk about.

1133
00:40:53.860 –> 00:40:55.100
Yeah, and I would expect

1134
00:40:55.100 –> 00:40:57.460
the show to be, you know, 40-45 minutes

1135
00:40:57.460 –> 00:40:59.520
long each day, but of course, one of the

1136
00:40:59.520 –> 00:41:01.180
beauties of podcasting is it can be

1137
00:41:01.180 –> 00:41:02.840
the length you choose it to be, and

1138
00:41:02.840 –> 00:41:05.100
I would imagine you’ll see us go live

1139
00:41:05.100 –> 00:41:07.500
on occasions, particularly around England Games.

1140
00:41:08.240 –> 00:41:09.220
Yeah, but a lot of this still

1141
00:41:09.220 –> 00:41:09.880
to be worked out.

1142
00:41:10.720 –> 00:41:13.260
I mean, it does feel like a watershed

1143
00:41:13.260 –> 00:41:15.540
moment, that a major

1144
00:41:15.540 –> 00:41:16.740
streaming platform,

1145
00:41:18.380 –> 00:41:19.160
not just that

1146
00:41:19.160 –> 00:41:21.340
it’s thinking about investing in the World Cup

1147
00:41:21.340 –> 00:41:23.320
without any rights, right, so in a lot of ways

1148
00:41:23.320 –> 00:41:25.700
they’re doing it in a very economical way, what they’re doing,

1149
00:41:25.820 –> 00:41:27.480
so it’s clever, really, right?

1150
00:41:28.500 –> 00:41:29.560
Absolutely, I mean, you know,

1151
00:41:29.560 –> 00:41:31.740
it would be a lot more expensive if they were trying to do a deal with FIFA.

1152
00:41:32.220 –> 00:41:33.420
Absolutely. So,

1153
00:41:33.580 –> 00:41:35.320
do you think this is

1154
00:41:36.200 –> 00:41:37.580
validation for this,

1155
00:41:38.280 –> 00:41:39.480
and I know the talent, but this

1156
00:41:39.480 –> 00:41:41.380
creator-led movement that’s

1157
00:41:41.380 –> 00:41:43.780
happening around sports content, this

1158
00:41:43.780 –> 00:41:45.500
traditional broadcasters versus

1159
00:41:45.500 –> 00:41:47.400
creator economy, because you could argue that they’re all creators,

1160
00:41:47.500 –> 00:41:49.480
right, the people that you’ve got in one way

1161
00:41:49.480 –> 00:41:51.600
or another. Do you think this is,

1162
00:41:51.600 –> 00:41:53.980
you know, what does this mean now for the sports

1163
00:41:53.980 –> 00:41:55.900
media and content world moving forward?

1164
00:41:56.260 –> 00:41:57.820
I think it means

1165
00:41:59.240 –> 00:42:00.040
that traditional

1166
00:42:00.040 –> 00:42:01.680
broadcasters are not the only show in

1167
00:42:01.680 –> 00:42:03.820
town anymore. You know,

1168
00:42:03.960 –> 00:42:05.720
we’re of an age where when we were growing

1169
00:42:05.720 –> 00:42:07.740
up, you know, we watched our football,

1170
00:42:08.560 –> 00:42:09.840
I mean, as a teenager, I watched

1171
00:42:09.840 –> 00:42:11.660
it pre-Sky, and I had a choice of watching

1172
00:42:11.660 –> 00:42:13.800
it on BBC and ITV, and there were very few live

1173
00:42:13.800 –> 00:42:15.700
games. Sky have done an amazing job

1174
00:42:15.700 –> 00:42:16.960
of opening that vista up,

1175
00:42:18.000 –> 00:42:19.600
and I think, you know, that BBC and ITV

1176
00:42:19.600 –> 00:42:21.900
still do a terrific job of

1177
00:42:21.900 –> 00:42:23.880
supplying football and

1178
00:42:23.880 –> 00:42:25.700
sports to the masses, but, you know, what

1179
00:42:25.700 –> 00:42:27.640
we’re trying to do is say

1180
00:42:27.640 –> 00:42:29.620
it’s not the only way to talk about

1181
00:42:29.620 –> 00:42:31.620
the game. There’s lots of other ways

1182
00:42:31.620 –> 00:42:33.700
of talking about the game, and increasingly, younger

1183
00:42:33.700 –> 00:42:36.160
audiences want a different kind of conversation.

1184
00:42:36.480 –> 00:42:37.860
I think that’s where podcasting

1185
00:42:37.860 –> 00:42:39.900
fits in. I think it’s complementary.

1186
00:42:40.480 –> 00:42:41.940
I don’t think it’s going to ever

1187
00:42:41.940 –> 00:42:43.740
stop, you know, the likes of

1188
00:42:43.740 –> 00:42:45.600
Sky being very successful

1189
00:42:45.600 –> 00:42:47.600
with big rights deals and

1190
00:42:48.660 –> 00:42:49.720
the big stars on

1191
00:42:50.700 –> 00:42:51.880
their live shows, but

1192
00:42:51.880 –> 00:42:53.780
I do think audiences

1193
00:42:54.200 –> 00:42:55.760
want an alternative, and

1194
00:42:55.760 –> 00:42:57.880
that’s what we’re trying to provide. So, interesting, I came to see

1195
00:42:57.880 –> 00:42:59.940
the rest of these politics in Manchester

1196
00:42:59.940 –> 00:43:01.780
recently, and actually, you were driving a

1197
00:43:01.780 –> 00:43:03.820
lot of audience interactivity

1198
00:43:03.820 –> 00:43:05.640
on the night, and in a lot of ways, like,

1199
00:43:05.740 –> 00:43:07.780
you could argue, yeah, it’s an obvious thing to do, but actually, the way you get

1200
00:43:07.780 –> 00:43:10.040
the audience involved, do you think there’s an opportunity

1201
00:43:10.520 –> 00:43:11.640
on some of the live

1202
00:43:12.860 –> 00:43:13.760
shows that you’ll do for

1203
00:43:13.760 –> 00:43:15.880
this, where ultimately, the global audience can

1204
00:43:16.800 –> 00:43:18.060
somehow give their

1205
00:43:18.060 –> 00:43:20.140
feedback to

1206
00:43:20.140 –> 00:43:21.880
Gary and Alan and the like, in terms

1207
00:43:21.880 –> 00:43:23.840
of how they’ve seen the games and how you

1208
00:43:23.840 –> 00:43:26.140
can bring that into that experience. Yeah, 100%.

1209
00:43:26.140 –> 00:43:27.920
I mean, you know, we are super

1210
00:43:27.920 –> 00:43:29.660
interactive. All of our shows are.

1211
00:43:30.240 –> 00:43:31.800
I mean, I

1212
00:43:31.800 –> 00:43:33.800
talk about community a lot, because I do

1213
00:43:33.800 –> 00:43:36.040
believe that, unlike a traditional audience

1214
00:43:36.620 –> 00:43:37.880
that’s relatively passive,

1215
00:43:39.420 –> 00:43:39.980
sat at home on

1216
00:43:39.980 –> 00:43:41.900
its sofa watching Saturday night

1217
00:43:41.900 –> 00:43:43.900
television, our audience is

1218
00:43:43.900 –> 00:43:46.120
much more lean in, it’s much more involved.

1219
00:43:46.300 –> 00:43:48.480
You know, I think, you know,

1220
00:43:48.680 –> 00:43:50.060
our background in podcasting shows

1221
00:43:50.060 –> 00:43:51.740
is that it’s a really intimate experience.

1222
00:43:52.980 –> 00:43:53.840
You’re commuting,

1223
00:43:54.000 –> 00:43:56.140
walking the dog, cooking, exercising,

1224
00:43:56.200 –> 00:43:57.940
you’ve got your headphones on, you’re really,

1225
00:43:57.940 –> 00:43:59.900
really involved, and I use this term

1226
00:43:59.900 –> 00:44:02.120
that I’m bored with many, many times, which is

1227
00:44:02.480 –> 00:44:04.300
our audience has a parasocial

1228
00:44:04.300 –> 00:44:06.160
relationship with the hosts.

1229
00:44:06.460 –> 00:44:08.160
They feel like the third person

1230
00:44:08.160 –> 00:44:09.860
in a three-way conversation,

1231
00:44:09.980 –> 00:44:12.120
and though they don’t always get to speak out loud,

1232
00:44:12.120 –> 00:44:14.380
we try to provide them with methods to do so.

1233
00:44:14.760 –> 00:44:16.520
So our Discord channels are super popular,

1234
00:44:16.920 –> 00:44:18.120
our live streams have

1235
00:44:18.120 –> 00:44:20.080
thousands and thousands of people commenting

1236
00:44:20.080 –> 00:44:22.160
as we go, and as

1237
00:44:22.160 –> 00:44:24.220
I say, our membership clubs are very significant. We’ve got more

1238
00:44:24.220 –> 00:44:26.120
than 200,000 members of our membership clubs,

1239
00:44:26.140 –> 00:44:28.200
and that’s all people wanting to be

1240
00:44:28.200 –> 00:44:28.820
more involved.

1241
00:44:30.840 –> 00:44:32.120
So this inflection

1242
00:44:32.120 –> 00:44:34.220
point for the Welcome to Netflix,

1243
00:44:35.580 –> 00:44:36.300
so a lot of

1244
00:44:36.300 –> 00:44:38.200
work to prepare for that right now, Ryan, obviously you’ve got

1245
00:44:38.200 –> 00:44:39.260
low cases, stuff like that.

1246
00:44:40.080 –> 00:44:41.100
After the World Cup,

1247
00:44:41.440 –> 00:44:43.360
then what happens? Because obviously this is, you know,

1248
00:44:44.280 –> 00:44:45.460
there’s going to be so much that we

1249
00:44:45.460 –> 00:44:47.280
learn from how this plays out,

1250
00:44:47.520 –> 00:44:49.400
and there’s going to be some

1251
00:44:49.400 –> 00:44:51.360
traditionalists that are not going to love it right, and

1252
00:44:51.360 –> 00:44:53.380
there’s going to be lots of other people who love the way

1253
00:44:53.380 –> 00:44:55.320
that in a lot of ways it becomes democratised,

1254
00:44:55.780 –> 00:44:57.380
and it’s a different kind of access. Where

1255
00:44:57.380 –> 00:44:58.900
do you see things going after that,

1256
00:44:59.420 –> 00:45:01.400
just with the rest is football, but in

1257
00:45:01.400 –> 00:45:03.260
general with how this medium is now

1258
00:45:03.840 –> 00:45:04.560
progressing for you?

1259
00:45:06.200 –> 00:45:07.300
I’ve been saying

1260
00:45:07.300 –> 00:45:09.560
this now for 18 months, two years,

1261
00:45:09.900 –> 00:45:11.500
there’s a major convergence

1262
00:45:12.640 –> 00:45:13.240
of

1263
00:45:13.240 –> 00:45:15.240
media forms, so

1264
00:45:15.980 –> 00:45:17.380
when podcasting first

1265
00:45:17.380 –> 00:45:19.100
started out, it was almost a hobby,

1266
00:45:19.380 –> 00:45:21.240
it was recorded over the kitchen table,

1267
00:45:21.540 –> 00:45:23.440
it was done on relatively cheap

1268
00:45:23.440 –> 00:45:25.060
microphones, there was no video,

1269
00:45:26.400 –> 00:45:27.540
and if you like

1270
00:45:27.540 –> 00:45:29.460
Netflix is the kind of super

1271
00:45:29.460 –> 00:45:31.760
high end, spend fortunes

1272
00:45:31.760 –> 00:45:33.420
on drama, brilliant productions,

1273
00:45:34.340 –> 00:45:35.400
wonderful, wonderful

1274
00:45:35.400 –> 00:45:37.020
stuff that they make that we all watch,

1275
00:45:37.540 –> 00:45:39.400
they couldn’t have been more

1276
00:45:40.020 –> 00:45:41.500
diametrically opposed really,

1277
00:45:41.780 –> 00:45:43.400
and yet they have converged

1278
00:45:43.960 –> 00:45:45.580
enormously, and now my feeling

1279
00:45:45.580 –> 00:45:47.800
is that traditional

1280
00:45:47.800 –> 00:45:49.300
television is under pressure,

1281
00:45:50.340 –> 00:45:50.620
particularly

1282
00:45:52.000 –> 00:45:53.280
traditional commissioning,

1283
00:45:54.240 –> 00:45:55.720
and budgets are under pressure,

1284
00:45:55.880 –> 00:45:57.660
and what we’re providing is

1285
00:45:58.040 –> 00:45:59.200
large audiences

1286
00:46:00.060 –> 00:46:01.720
in areas that

1287
00:46:01.720 –> 00:46:03.680
people want to spend a tonne of time

1288
00:46:03.680 –> 00:46:04.640
with the hosts,

1289
00:46:05.160 –> 00:46:07.460
if you were Netflix, if you were Apple, if you were

1290
00:46:07.460 –> 00:46:09.580
Amazon Prime, why would you not look at

1291
00:46:09.580 –> 00:46:11.540
our world, why would you not say

1292
00:46:11.540 –> 00:46:13.780
let’s bring our overall cost

1293
00:46:13.780 –> 00:46:16.000
per hour production down whilst still maintaining

1294
00:46:16.000 –> 00:46:17.420
super engaged audiences,

1295
00:46:17.820 –> 00:46:19.820
I honestly think there’s only one way

1296
00:46:19.820 –> 00:46:20.340
of travel here.

1297
00:46:21.880 –> 00:46:23.600
You thought you were being

1298
00:46:23.600 –> 00:46:25.840
brought in to talk about recitation and other things,

1299
00:46:26.160 –> 00:46:27.640
and it’s clear that

1300
00:46:27.640 –> 00:46:29.300
I’ve got no doubt that

1301
00:46:29.300 –> 00:46:31.800
what you’re going to create for them is going to be

1302
00:46:31.800 –> 00:46:34.020
something successful, and I think you’ve developed that relationship

1303
00:46:34.020 –> 00:46:34.860
now,

1304
00:46:35.700 –> 00:46:37.520
and you talked earlier about

1305
00:46:37.520 –> 00:46:39.940
the fact that you thought you were going to talk about potentially some of the other

1306
00:46:39.940 –> 00:46:41.760
shows, and it’s clear that

1307
00:46:41.760 –> 00:46:43.820
there’s bound to be an interest for them in some of the other things

1308
00:46:43.820 –> 00:46:45.540
you do as well. Yeah, and look,

1309
00:46:46.360 –> 00:46:47.960
while it’s really important to us

1310
00:46:47.960 –> 00:46:49.700
and really valuable, and we

1311
00:46:49.700 –> 00:46:51.960
care about it, I also don’t want to

1312
00:46:52.780 –> 00:46:53.880
do down the fact that our

1313
00:46:53.880 –> 00:46:55.780
video does brilliantly on Spotify

1314
00:46:55.780 –> 00:46:57.940
video, it does really, really

1315
00:46:57.940 –> 00:46:59.060
well on YouTube,

1316
00:46:59.820 –> 00:47:01.080
we do about

1317
00:47:01.080 –> 00:47:03.160
70 million downloads a month across all

1318
00:47:03.160 –> 00:47:04.940
platforms now, and about

1319
00:47:04.940 –> 00:47:07.120
15 million of them on YouTube, that’s

1320
00:47:07.120 –> 00:47:08.900
really, really important and growing

1321
00:47:08.900 –> 00:47:10.820
part of what we do,

1322
00:47:11.240 –> 00:47:13.040
and the addition of video on Spotify

1323
00:47:13.040 –> 00:47:15.100
has absolutely been transformational,

1324
00:47:15.340 –> 00:47:17.060
we’re intrigued by what

1325
00:47:17.060 –> 00:47:19.560
it’s done to our audiences on Spotify, and we’re

1326
00:47:19.560 –> 00:47:20.500
big partners with Spotify,

1327
00:47:21.220 –> 00:47:23.180
they’re very good to us and we’re good friends with

1328
00:47:23.180 –> 00:47:25.200
them, and they’ve really helped us

1329
00:47:25.200 –> 00:47:26.460
to find new audiences,

1330
00:47:27.180 –> 00:47:28.380
especially around the world,

1331
00:47:28.500 –> 00:47:30.140
they’ve really helped us in the States,

1332
00:47:31.340 –> 00:47:32.440
and I think video has been

1333
00:47:32.440 –> 00:47:33.700
a really important part of that.

1334
00:47:34.220 –> 00:47:36.760
So a couple of things, so you’ve recently

1335
00:47:36.760 –> 00:47:37.680
rebranded,

1336
00:47:38.400 –> 00:47:40.360
why did you feel the need

1337
00:47:41.000 –> 00:47:41.960
to rebrand,

1338
00:47:43.200 –> 00:47:44.540
what are you trying to get across

1339
00:47:44.540 –> 00:47:46.120
now with this rebrand refocus?

1340
00:47:46.480 –> 00:47:48.800
I think we’re trying to say that we’re a super

1341
00:47:48.800 –> 00:47:50.360
modern media company,

1342
00:47:50.800 –> 00:47:52.660
and that we are

1343
00:47:52.660 –> 00:47:54.720
not just a podcast business, that we

1344
00:47:54.720 –> 00:47:56.920
are, I hope,

1345
00:47:57.140 –> 00:47:58.640
that we’re pretty high-end,

1346
00:47:59.000 –> 00:48:00.600
if you look at some of the aesthetic

1347
00:48:00.600 –> 00:48:02.300
that Stephen Mayer,

1348
00:48:02.900 –> 00:48:04.800
CMO, came up with

1349
00:48:05.540 –> 00:48:06.580
with his

1350
00:48:06.580 –> 00:48:08.680
designers, what we’ve

1351
00:48:08.680 –> 00:48:10.600
really gone for is that kind of

1352
00:48:10.600 –> 00:48:12.480
high-end glossy magazine

1353
00:48:12.480 –> 00:48:15.120
aesthetic, so I think a lot of our show’s

1354
00:48:15.120 –> 00:48:16.800
thumbnails are going to start to look

1355
00:48:16.800 –> 00:48:19.000
like they could have been on the New Yorker

1356
00:48:19.000 –> 00:48:20.700
or the Sunday Times or

1357
00:48:20.700 –> 00:48:22.740
on the fashion magazine, and I really

1358
00:48:22.740 –> 00:48:24.380
feel like we wanted to get that sense,

1359
00:48:24.500 –> 00:48:26.360
I’ll tell you how he sold it to me,

1360
00:48:26.640 –> 00:48:28.940
he came in and he had a beautiful

1361
00:48:28.940 –> 00:48:30.960
picture of Zinedine Zidane

1362
00:48:30.960 –> 00:48:32.660
in black and white with the

1363
00:48:32.660 –> 00:48:34.460
Goldhanger logo over it,

1364
00:48:34.500 –> 00:48:36.300
and I just fell in love with it at that point,

1365
00:48:36.340 –> 00:48:38.100
because for me,

1366
00:48:38.440 –> 00:48:40.620
as a massive football fan, and I’ve

1367
00:48:40.620 –> 00:48:42.380
been lucky enough to see Zidane play many times

1368
00:48:42.380 –> 00:48:44.540
and adored him as a player, he

1369
00:48:44.540 –> 00:48:46.380
exactly exemplifies where we want to be,

1370
00:48:46.420 –> 00:48:48.600
which is super smart,

1371
00:48:48.980 –> 00:48:50.400
engaging, entertaining,

1372
00:48:50.400 –> 00:48:52.360
really good at what they do,

1373
00:48:52.620 –> 00:48:54.700
and of course with a bit of the maverick

1374
00:48:54.700 –> 00:48:56.460
about it, and

1375
00:48:56.460 –> 00:48:58.360
a little bit of the unpredictable, and I

1376
00:48:58.360 –> 00:49:00.460
just loved the image, and I said, that’s exactly where

1377
00:49:00.460 –> 00:49:02.580
I want to position us. I think in a lot of ways

1378
00:49:02.580 –> 00:49:04.380
that’s tied in nicely, you’re doing

1379
00:49:04.380 –> 00:49:06.500
the Resty’s Fest at the Southbank Centre next year,

1380
00:49:06.540 –> 00:49:08.400
which is effectively you taking over the whole

1381
00:49:08.400 –> 00:49:12.960
of the Southbank Centre with all of your

1382
00:49:12.960 –> 00:49:13.340
properties,

1383
00:49:14.260 –> 00:49:16.360
that must feel like,

1384
00:49:16.420 –> 00:49:18.220
it must be amazing to have the property,

1385
00:49:18.220 –> 00:49:20.220
I mean, a lot of work, but the proposition,

1386
00:49:20.360 –> 00:49:21.940
the idea of that coming around.

1387
00:49:22.020 –> 00:49:24.400
Yeah, it’s a wonderful thing to do, because it’s 75

1388
00:49:24.400 –> 00:49:25.980
years since the Southbank opened,

1389
00:49:27.540 –> 00:49:28.480
and Royal Festival Hall

1390
00:49:28.480 –> 00:49:30.780
is a magnificent building, but so too are the

1391
00:49:30.780 –> 00:49:32.240
Purcell Room and the Queen Elizabeth Room,

1392
00:49:32.240 –> 00:49:34.020
which are next door, we’re going to use all of them,

1393
00:49:34.300 –> 00:49:36.040
we’re going to use four venues within the site,

1394
00:49:36.320 –> 00:49:37.900
we’re going to put on

1395
00:49:37.900 –> 00:49:40.380
about 28 shows, we’re going to sell

1396
00:49:40.380 –> 00:49:41.820
now on 30,000 tickets,

1397
00:49:42.060 –> 00:49:44.400
but I think it would be brilliant to be able to bring all of our

1398
00:49:44.400 –> 00:49:46.060
shows together, we’re going to do some fun mashups

1399
00:49:46.060 –> 00:49:47.660
and crossovers with,

1400
00:49:48.440 –> 00:49:50.260
I think if you saw,

1401
00:49:50.840 –> 00:49:52.200
by the way, if we do end up doing,

1402
00:49:52.640 –> 00:49:54.380
if Michael Richards ends up on stage

1403
00:49:54.380 –> 00:49:56.560
with Anthony Scaramucci discussing American politics,

1404
00:49:57.120 –> 00:49:58.360
things will have gone in an extremely

1405
00:49:58.360 –> 00:50:00.260
unusual way, but we are going to do some

1406
00:50:00.660 –> 00:50:01.780
fun crossovers.

1407
00:50:02.380 –> 00:50:04.220
Yeah, and that Southbank

1408
00:50:04.220 –> 00:50:06.180
was opened up as a festival

1409
00:50:06.180 –> 00:50:08.180
of ideas and a celebration of Britain,

1410
00:50:08.540 –> 00:50:10.360
and I’m hoping in a small

1411
00:50:10.360 –> 00:50:12.260
way we can do a little bit of that next September.

1412
00:50:12.380 –> 00:50:13.140
That would be amazing.

1413
00:50:13.140 –> 00:50:15.620
So, final thoughts, so

1414
00:50:15.620 –> 00:50:17.320
June 11th, 2026,

1415
00:50:17.960 –> 00:50:19.280
opening match of the World Cup,

1416
00:50:19.560 –> 00:50:20.960
racist football going live on Netflix,

1417
00:50:21.360 –> 00:50:22.300
what are you hoping happens?

1418
00:50:23.000 –> 00:50:25.280
Well, I hope people watch it.

1419
00:50:25.320 –> 00:50:27.300
I mean, you know, that is the unknown

1420
00:50:27.300 –> 00:50:29.380
and we can’t control

1421
00:50:29.380 –> 00:50:31.640
that, you know, one of the

1422
00:50:31.640 –> 00:50:33.600
beauties of

1423
00:50:33.600 –> 00:50:35.000
media is that

1424
00:50:35.000 –> 00:50:37.260
you only get the audience you deserve in the end

1425
00:50:37.260 –> 00:50:39.360
and many people don’t get the audience

1426
00:50:39.360 –> 00:50:41.240
they deserve, they get smaller audiences because

1427
00:50:41.240 –> 00:50:43.340
discovery is difficult and

1428
00:50:43.340 –> 00:50:45.460
competition is out there and there’s a lot of things people can watch.

1429
00:50:45.880 –> 00:50:47.300
So, I would be

1430
00:50:47.300 –> 00:50:49.360
delighted if people watch it

1431
00:50:49.980 –> 00:50:51.340
and really enjoy it and

1432
00:50:51.340 –> 00:50:53.380
come back the next day. So, anyone who’s

1433
00:50:53.380 –> 00:50:55.320
not heard of racist football, where can they find it

1434
00:50:55.320 –> 00:50:56.840
to watch or listen to it before the World Cup?

1435
00:50:57.120 –> 00:50:59.520
So, the racist football comes out four times a week,

1436
00:50:59.900 –> 00:51:01.240
three times with

1437
00:51:02.240 –> 00:51:03.600
Gary, Alan Shearer

1438
00:51:03.600 –> 00:51:05.440
and Michael Richards talking about the Premier League,

1439
00:51:05.560 –> 00:51:07.540
talking about the Champions League, talking about

1440
00:51:07.540 –> 00:51:09.140
all the football around the world

1441
00:51:09.140 –> 00:51:11.440
and then once a week on a Tuesday, Gary

1442
00:51:11.440 –> 00:51:13.020
is joined by Alex Aljoe

1443
00:51:13.020 –> 00:51:14.540
and we talk about La Liga

1444
00:51:15.060 –> 00:51:17.240
and we get to show the goals, which is

1445
00:51:17.240 –> 00:51:19.200
wonderful, you can listen to it on Apple,

1446
00:51:19.360 –> 00:51:20.600
you can watch it on Spotify

1447
00:51:20.940 –> 00:51:22.220
and you can watch it on YouTube.

1448
00:51:23.100 –> 00:51:25.420
So, and last question, obviously you’ve got lots of

1449
00:51:25.420 –> 00:51:27.340
big podcasts in there, but what’s

1450
00:51:27.340 –> 00:51:29.500
one show that you do

1451
00:51:29.500 –> 00:51:31.280
that people might not be aware of that you would recommend

1452
00:51:31.280 –> 00:51:31.960
from your stable?

1453
00:51:34.080 –> 00:51:35.200
So, we make

1454
00:51:35.200 –> 00:51:36.780
a program called

1455
00:51:36.780 –> 00:51:38.780
The Rest is Classified, which is

1456
00:51:38.780 –> 00:51:40.520
all about spy stories.

1457
00:51:40.760 –> 00:51:42.720
David McCloskey, former CIA

1458
00:51:42.720 –> 00:51:44.660
agent based in Damascus,

1459
00:51:44.660 –> 00:51:46.880
Syria is the host, along with

1460
00:51:46.880 –> 00:51:49.020
Gordon Carrera, former intelligence

1461
00:51:49.020 –> 00:51:50.200
correspondent at the BBC.

1462
00:51:50.780 –> 00:51:52.800
These boys really know their stuff

1463
00:51:52.800 –> 00:51:54.280
and it tells amazing stories.

1464
00:51:54.640 –> 00:51:56.980
This weekend I listened to a six part special

1465
00:51:56.980 –> 00:51:59.060
about the

1466
00:51:59.060 –> 00:52:00.940
attempt by Evgeny

1467
00:52:00.940 –> 00:52:02.820
Prigozhin to overturn

1468
00:52:02.820 –> 00:52:04.460
Putin’s power in Russia.

1469
00:52:05.080 –> 00:52:06.480
Absolutely electric, I’d strongly

1470
00:52:06.480 –> 00:52:07.800
recommend it. Cool.

1471
00:52:08.240 –> 00:52:10.160
Tony, thanks so much for your time today.

1472
00:52:10.640 –> 00:52:12.580
Fingers crossed we get a win tonight, because that’s

1473
00:52:12.580 –> 00:52:14.440
the most important thing we’re doing today.

1474
00:52:14.920 –> 00:52:16.600
We travel more in hope than

1475
00:52:16.600 –> 00:52:17.560
expectation. Absolutely.

1476
00:52:18.240 –> 00:52:20.540
Thank you so much for your time. I’ve been Ad Abyss

1477
00:52:20.540 –> 00:52:21.460
and this has been The Attention Shift.

1478
00:52:36.190 –> 00:52:36.250
Bye.